Lets point guns at each other!

[hd96heritage]

Oh man. Just seeing that picture made me sick to my stomach and uneasy. Are they not familiar with the 4 safety rules??? Even practicing with snap caps makes me nervous and I have to safety check a bazillion times, and that's still pointing in a safe direction. I can see someone trying to make the training point, but no, h*ll NO. sad that there are people putting their lives and trust into these instructor's hands.

 

[hd96heritage]

If that's level 1.... do you actually get to shoot someone in level 2? That would be saaweeeeeeet.

 

[AllenM]

T.D.S.A. here is a video of their advanced training. at the 5:20 mark it appears they are practicing reloads while pointing the gun at someone. unless my eyes are playing tricks on me. I will not be doing these drills

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GWtreVz_7Y

 

[VUPDblue]

T.D.S.A. here is a video of their advanced training. at the 5:20 mark it appears they are practicing reloads while pointing the gun at someone. unless my eyes are playing tricks on me. I will not be doing these drills

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GWtreVz_7Y

 

[dsol]

My dad used to be an instructor for the local PD years and years ago (1970's). He would take a dummy revolver, since they still carried those old fashioned things back then. Hand it to the newbie, take a piece of paper in his hand and put it between the kid and himself. He would tell the kid, while not moving from the spot he stood, to shoot him. He kept moving the paper between the gun and himself. Kid would give up after a minute or two, so dad would take the dummy, give the kid the paper and do it from the other side. As soon as the kid put the paper up, dad just pointed the gun and said "bang, you are dead!". Kid says, wait, the paper was in front of the gun... dad would say, so what .38 would not go through a piece of paper?

Valuable lesson between cover and concealment. That is the closest to pointing weapons at each other he ever taught back in the olden days.

 

[mk2ja]

I have to admit, we kinda-sorta did that in the Army...usually with MILES gear and blank adapters in place. there was, however, strict ammunition control, but nothing is perfect.

I was just thinking, "if it's such good training doctrine, why don't we do it in the military?" And then I saw your remark. Yeah, I suppose we did kinda do that. And it may be different circumstances from the drill, but over time, you do get used to pointing your weapon at a human target, not philosophizing about what you're doing, and just pulling the trigger.

Maybe paintball would be a better way to accomplish this goal in civilian training, rather than using your weapons without a giant red BFA on the muzzle.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I just came here to read Kirk's response...None yet...Will check back later...

So, some in the training community refuse to learn from the dead bodies at Gunsite? Welllll, ok, Skippy, I know how hardcore tactical and stuff you are, but let's review why this is a bad idea . . . you, in the back. You have a question?

"You are a sissy, the police do this so I have do it."

Yeah, Cledus, the police with their insurance and re-insurance policies, in-house lawyers and stacks of liability waivers, do it and the die doing it. Here's a young one that died last week because the old guy teaching him was sooooo much more tactical and stuff (note you will find find the stories about the ones that die in training on INGO unless Kirk Freeman posts them--people are just too tactical to admit that this happens).

http://6abc.com/news/1-injured-in-accidental-shooting-at-montco-firing-range/331225/

Sometimes the cops go to jail for shooting each other like that: Police Training Instructor Who Shot Recruit During Exercise To Serve 60 Days In Jail « CBS Baltimore

You go look in the mirror, Cledus. You ain't wearing no salad suit and you ain't got no frickin' shiny badge.

Don't point guns at people that don't need guns pointed at them. Use a sand barrel, a big pile of dirt, but don't use anything soft and flesh-toned.

Something like this is what you were expecting?

 

[Bennettjh]

Holy crap!

Bad s**t waiting to happen.

 

[Drail]

Over the years I remember reading about some cases where this kind of "training" was used in L.E. classes. Unsurprisingly some of the officers shot their partners with live rounds as the class was breaking up and some officers had reloaded their duty sidearms before going out the door and decided to do the drill "one more time". There is absolutely no reason to do this no matter who you are or who you work for. Use your finger and yell BANG!.

 

[jd4320t]

If Yeager was doing this INGO would be all for it....

 

[AA&E]

I am hoping this is a optical illusion created by the angle and perspective. Surely noone would advocate a firearms instruction that involves pointing lethal weapons at each other. 100% of accidental shootings occur with 'unloaded' weapons... that's why these shootings are 'accidental', because if not they would be intentional shootings...

this is unreal.

 

[JetGirl]

This was to get you used to pointing your gun at a real person.

Why, exactly?
Why would you need to "get used to" that?
If the S is HTF, I don't think it's a matter of "doing something you're not used to"...I think it's a matter of survival/self-preservation.

If Yeager was doing this INGO would be all for it....

Don't bet the farm on that.
I am INGO and I vote.

 

[cedartop]

Why, exactly?
Why would you need to "get used to" that?
If the S is HTF, I don't think it's a matter of "doing something you're not used to"...I think it's a matter of survival/self-preservation.

JetGirl, there is a popular theory that people, even in combat, have an aversion to shooting other people. This was popularized by Lt, Col. Grossman in his books and seminars. While I do buy into the fact that good people have been conditioned from childhood to not point guns at people, I don't buy into the supposition that humans are unwilling to do violence to others.



..

JetGirl, there is a popular theory that people, even in combat, have an aversion to shooting other people. This was popularized by Lt, Col. Grossman in his books and seminars. While I do buy into the fact that good people have been conditioned from childhood to not point guns at people, I don't buy into the supposition that humans are unwilling to do violence to others.

 

[indiucky]

So, some in the training community refuse to learn from the dead bodies at Gunsite? Welllll, ok, Skippy, I know how hardcore tactical and stuff you are, but let's review why this is a bad idea . . . you, in the back. You have a question?

"You are a sissy, the police do this so I have do it."

Yeah, Cledus, the police with their insurance and re-insurance policies, in-house lawyers and stacks of liability waivers, do it and the die doing it. Here's a young one that died last week because the old guy teaching him was sooooo much more tactical and stuff (note you will find find the stories about the ones that die in training on INGO unless Kirk Freeman posts them--people are just too tactical to admit that this happens).

http://6abc.com/news/1-injured-in-accidental-shooting-at-montco-firing-range/331225/

Sometimes the cops go to jail for shooting each other like that: Police Training Instructor Who Shot Recruit During Exercise To Serve 60 Days In Jail « CBS Baltimore

You go look in the mirror, Cledus. You ain't wearing no salad suit and you ain't got no frickin' shiny badge.

Don't point guns at people that don't need guns pointed at them. Use a sand barrel, a big pile of dirt, but don't use anything soft and flesh-toned.

Something like this is what you were expecting?

Perfect!!!! With examples no less......I keep the Mark Twain quote handy regarding "Rusty old unloaded muskets being the most unerringly accurate and deadly things on Earth".....

Being a one man gun shop that gets lots of folks from lots of different backgrounds I have had my share of guns pointed at me...Depending on my mood my response can be mundane or pretty animated....

There is a quote from an old Ruger ad with a poem a father left to his son regarding gun safety and one line has stayed in my head for 30 plus years...I have quoted it to nephews, cousins, inlaws and outlaws...

"Remember this,
All the Pheasant ever bred
Can not repay
for one man dead."

It would make a nice tatoo I think....

 

[Thor]

Why, exactly?
Why would you need to "get used to" that?
If the S is HTF, I don't think it's a matter of "doing something you're not used to"...I think it's a matter of survival/self-preservation.

For folks in the military the SHTF on a fairly regular basis. Also, you train force on force and the training systems MILES/MILES II are made to attach to your service weapon so you can train with your service weapon in tactical scenarios. Making simulators that mimic the number of service weapons needed to outfit the militaries training venues would cost so much it would never happen. The MILES gear gives you audio signals of near hits and hits and takes your weapon out of the mix if you are simu-killed.

It's like the ACMI / P5CTS systems for fighter aircraft, they fly missions against each other carrying inert missiles that can track and do everything but fly and blow up, they practice shooting each other down force on force, then come back and review the recordings to see what happened, who killed who when, and how to do it better next time.

Anyway...that's why, or at least one of the reasons.

You'll see from my earlier post that I do not advocate this practice in any other venue.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Making simulators that mimic the number of service weapons needed to outfit the militaries training venues would cost so much it would never happen.
.

I am not disagreeing with the main thrust of your point, but this one caught my eye. If the military can afford MILES it can afford other simulators as well. The only real constraint is whose pockets the manufacturers are in. Someone comes up with the perfect simulator that costs 10 times as much as MILES but is in tight with some of the upper echelon in the military and their retired advisors/lobbyists on the Hill and they are in no matter the cost.

 

[Rookie]

They also have/had the firearms training simulator (FATS machine) which used a TV screen and a air powered firearm. The firearm shot a laser which showed shot placement. We used it for shoot, don't shoot scenarios. Yes, it was a lot of fun.

 

[Thor]

Well, it would require not just a device that attached to a weapon, but one that would mimic that weapon, it's weight and feel, as well as it's function and interfaces. The problem we have with dedicated simulators is that the training device only mimics the go to war device until the next weapons upgrade. Then the training device increasingly becomes negative training until decades pass and it's useless.

The first things that are dropped from acquisition programs are training devices, documentation, and logistics support.

I'm not saying your wrong about corruption in the system but to actually produce the weapons and sights so they are functionally correct would be so cost prohibitive that the Army would have to go back to Real Train, where they sent out evaluators to try and determine who shot who. That training Hoovered poo.

 

[Thor]

They also have/had the firearms training simulator (FATS machine) which used a TV screen and a air powered firearm. The firearm shot a laser which showed shot placement. We used it for shoot, don't shoot scenarios. Yes, it was a lot of fun.

FATS is good for a shoot room but kind of hard to fit a maneuver division in there with air support...

And yes they were a bit of amusement.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Well, it would require not just a device that attached to a weapon, but one that would mimic that weapon, it's weight and feel, as well as it's function and interfaces. The problem we have with dedicated simulators is that the training device only mimics the go to war device until the next weapons upgrade. Then the training device increasingly becomes negative training until decades pass and it's useless.

The first things that are dropped from acquisition programs are training devices, documentation, and logistics support.

I'm not saying your wrong about corruption in the system but to actually produce the weapons and sights so they are functionally correct would be so cost prohibitive that the Army would have to go back to Real Train, where they sent out evaluators to try and determine who shot who. That training Hoovered poo.

See, the problem is you are trying to apply logic here. That simply won't work in our system today...