Are We Going To Act? Where Do You Stand?

[Rookie]

My family and I plan on going soon. Location please...

I withdraw my statement. Too bad, because my family (all six of us) really enjoyed (notice the intentional use of past tense) going there.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Well, folks, I see it the same way as I do the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" thing.

Done in the name of health, I do doubt that my feet are any dirtier than my shoes.

It's a feel-good thing that we've learned to live with.

Let's not expect too much at once. It's enough, for now, that a business is pro-gun. We have time to change other things later.

I would never go into a store without a shirt or shoes, but I would like the option. Likewise, I would like the option of being able to take off a cover garment if I get too warm.

It's not really the business's fault though. They are there to make money, not support special-interests. If I saw a bunch of pro-choice people in a place in which I was eating, I would likely lose my appetite and ask that something be done and expect it to be done.

This type of thing really has to be a manager's nightmare.

On the other hand, if all the patrons would just mind their own business, hey, we could all eat in peace.

Maybe there should be a sign on the door prohibiting whining about others.

Josh

 

[ATM]

On the other hand, if all the patrons would just mind their own business, hey, we could all eat in peace.

I'd still like to know for sure if it was a patron or the management that called the police.

If it was indeed the management, as the original conversation seemed to suggest, then they needlessly brought this issue upon themselves.

 

[Wabatuckian]

The letters say it was a patron.

I don't know that there will ever be a 100% answer to that one.

It's not often I'm on the fence, but really, this is a business being forced into a position by people who can't mind their own business. Baaaaa, in other words.

However, the business can't ignore their bleating if the business is going to succeed in making money.

This is another case of the sheeple forcing hands that need not be forced.

Josh

 

[ATM]

The letters are all post damage control. The original conversation with the local manager right after the police left was quite different:

...that's when he told me the regional manager was in the restaurant earlier and told him to call. I let him know that I would be contacting corporate and he told me that corporate is the one that told him to call...

I would think that if some random patron just decided to call the police about a man carrying a gun, never even bringing it up to the restaurant management, there would be zero response expected or required from the establishment where they happened to be dining at the time.

Makes more sense that HuHot called and then changed the story to warrant some form of policy response for the public.

Not sure if we can find out who called it in, but I'm not buying the change-up in the story line.

 

[bassplayrguy]

I have to say that I don't think the business would lose a single customer by allowing open carry. I say that because of two reasons. 1. People are creatures of habit. The people who go to this rest. on a regular basis will become accustomed to seeing people (sometimes the same people they have seen before) carrying a firearm. And 2. People who are just passing through and probably won't be seen again will not get up and leave in the middle of dinner just because "that guy has a gun". I spent alot of time in rest. management and people are funny about what they expect but it takes alot more than this to make a customer not come back if your service and food are of great quality. Just my opinion. I was ready to make a 2 and a half hour trip to support this business but now I can't justify the trip for a place that is no different than right around the house here.

 

[Donnelly]

There are just too many other good places available (in Lafayette) that won't ask me to cover up.

^^^This^^^

Also, I think the problem a lot of us have now is it feels as if the HuHot management has pulled the rug out from under us. At first they were "very" supportive of our rights and apologetic that the patron was put in that situation while OC'ing. Now they are saying that they will "compromise" by allowing CC only in the restaurant.

Again, there are just too many other good places available (in Lafayette) that won't ask me to cover up.

 

[Mr. Habib]

The letters are all post damage control. The original conversation with the local manager right after the police left was quite different:



I would think that if some random patron just decided to call the police about a man carrying a gun, never even bringing it up to the restaurant management, there would be zero response expected or required from the establishment where they happened to be dining at the time.

Makes more sense that HuHot called and then changed the story to warrant some form of policy response for the public.

Not sure if we can find out who called it in, but I'm not buying the change-up in the story line.

I agree completely. The management are just doing damage control. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

 

[Icarry2]

I started reading this thread, skipped to the other , added rep and then came back here to read and find the letters and all..

Why was there a second thread started? Hard to stay on subject skipping threads, or is it just me..

Anyway, IMHO, it is a businesses responsibility to know, understand and abide by the federal, state and local laws. They got caught pushing the panic button and when you informed them that you were going to backfire about them on the forum you found out about them means that their future business could take a hit and that they don't want a fledgling place to fold..

I would support an open carry lunch or dinner there if I lived close or if there is one close to me.. Otherwise I won't bother going in there..

 

[WabashMX5]

I'd missed the original thread, but I'm glad to hear about the regional response. It's becoming a favorite (and we live just down the street from it), so I'd have hated to scratch it off our dining list....

 

[Timjoebillybob]

The letters are all post damage control. The original conversation with the local manager right after the police left was quite different:

I would think that if some random patron just decided to call the police about a man carrying a gun, never even bringing it up to the restaurant management, there would be zero response expected or required from the establishment where they happened to be dining at the time.

Makes more sense that HuHot called and then changed the story to warrant some form of policy response for the public.

Not sure if we can find out who called it in, but I'm not buying the change-up in the story line.

Actually, I typed that backwards. I told the manager I would be contacting corp and he said that is who told him to call, that the regional manager was in the store earlier and he asked him what to do and was told to let the police handle it.

The officer I talked to also said they were called by the manager.

I'd still like to know for sure if it was a patron or the management that called the police.

If it was indeed the management, as the original conversation seemed to suggest, then they needlessly brought this issue upon themselves.

After the first e-mail Josh and I received, I kinda blew off going to get a copy of the police report and 911 call.

The letters say it was a patron.

I don't know that there will ever be a 100% answer to that one.

Josh

Josh the patron the first e-mail addressed was me. Read the bolded part of it.

Joshua,
Thanks for sending me your message. As I told the patron that you noted below, the situation should have been handled in a different manner. For this, I apologized. This was our staff's first encounter with a patron carrying a sidearm other than a member of law enforcement. Truthfully, Joshua, our management staff was improperly trained on handling this situation in an appropriate manner. We take full responsibility for this.
You will be happy to know that our executive team will be meeting today to devise a plan on how we can better educate our managers and hourly staff to ensure a situation like this never happens in the future.

And from the e-mail I received.

Tim,
Thank you for sending me your message. I do appreciate you taking the time. I agree, this situation should have been handled differently. This is the first time our management staff has encountered a sidearm being carried into our restaurant by someone other than a law enforcement officer and I feel they were not properly trained in how to handle a situation like this. For this, I apologize.
You'll be happy to know that we will be discussing this situation with our entire management and hourly staff to better equip then with information concerning the open-carry law. Hopefully with better training, a situation like this, in the future, can be handled in a much more appropriate manner.

I also wonder if Lindenstruth understands the law in IN, best as I can tell regional is based in WI. No concealed carry is allowed there. I wonder if this is a way to seem pro-gun while actually banning them from their restaurants?

 

[Donnelly]

I just re-read the letters from management and the first one said that they would "educate their managers and hourly staff" that it is legal to open carry in Indiana and that the original situation should have been handled better. Now they are saying that they will compromise and allow firearms in the store only if they are concealed (except of course for the protected class, police officers, who can still carry unconcealed).

Screw 'em. My money is better spent elsewhere.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I just got off the phone with Brian Schalk, he asked if I would mind if they requested the police report to find out who actually called. I said not at all they are public record. We had a pretty good conversation imo, he is not a handgun owner/carrier, he hunts with a rifle.

If anyone in or around Lafayette would like to get the police report/911 call, pm me and I'll give you all my information to make it easier to get them. They are public record. Actually if anyone will do it, I'll be great full, it will save me a hour and a half round trip.

I brought up several things concerning open carry(including that most of their restaurants were in WI and therefore CC is illegal) and getting an IN LTCH, he said he could talk them over with David (his boss) and that I would be getting a call if not tomorrow, Friday from David.

I am impressed by the response, if not the latest e-mail. I do have to say they are going above what they need to do. I'm not hopeful about my phone call, but I'm hoping.

 

[mrortega]

Thats a bit far north for me but I am curious to how this comes out.Please keep me in the loop. Does this company own any other places around southern Indiana? Maybe under a different name? I have never heard of them. It is good to know that they are willing to be educated on the subject and not just slap a no firearms sign on the front door though!

Probably none in Southern Indiana. It takes all your teeth to eat ribs!

 

[ezdubbin97]

Funny thing about this is that the regional manager is based out of WI, he was sent down here to help with opening of the store. He came in a while back to my shop to have his car worked on...I explained to him that his problem was related to an o-ring failure...he then made a point to state he knew all about o-rings because of all his guns he had. I didn't really see the connection he was trying to make and assumed he just wanted to mention he liked guns...well, I was okay with that, but other than wondering if a DUI was considered a felony (he had an Intoxalock installed in the car) and if he was legal to own a gun, I didn't think much about it.

Really adds a strange twist to the plot if in fact a "gun" enthusiast called on a fellow gun owner...either way I am impressed with Hu-Hot's response email to the situation.

 

[Dave_L]

Owner Response

All,

Thank you for the spirited discussion. I apologize in advance for the length of this message, but there are multiple topics that I would like to address.

First, as stated in my response to Mr. Smith, I am a proud gun owner. I own multiple firearms - pistols, shotguns, and rifles. I have done a mixed bag of hunting, target practice, and trap shooting since I was a child. Furthermore, if Wisconsin allowed concealed carry (which I'm hoping will be passed as law under the current administration), I would be inclined to carry.

Second, I want to clarify what has transpired in our restaurant. The situation should have been handled better. There still remains confusion as to who called the police. Our managers are stating that they did not call and yet it appears that they may have told the police and/or the guest that they did. The manager who the guest spoke to is younger and I believe that he was confused and overwhelmed by the situation. It is my understanding that he told the guest that the restaurant called the police, because he thought that a different manager did. I'm not sure that anyone will ever know who called the police - and regardless, it is not significant. Either way, the situation was handled improperly. If the manager did call the police, he should not have done this until he spoke with the guest and/or received approval from a superior. If he didn't call the police, then he should have checked his facts prior to responding to the guest. This is not related to our policy, but is poor guest service nonetheless and I apologize.

Third, I want to clarify Mr. Schalk's original comment. Mr. Schalk is not a firearm activist in the sense that you or I may be. Hence, I'm not certain that he was familiar that "open carry" and "concealed carry" have very specific meanings. So, when he stated that we wanted to be more "open carry friendly" I think his e-mail response to Mr. Smith was very confusing.

Finally, I want to address the real issue at hand - which is our policy regarding open carry of firearms in our restaurant. As stated, we will allow concealed firearms in our weapons (if legally carried). There are multiple reasons for this.
- We want all guests (and employees) to feel comfortable and there are guests who don't feel comfortable when seeing a firearm.
- We want all guests to feel comfortable and we don't want a guest having the police called on him/her while being a lawfully abiding citizen.
- We want to make a rule that is consistent across all of our locations that we operate (currently, we own and operate restaurants in Wisconsin and Indiana) and we feel that this rule is most universal to the locations we operate.
- Going along with the point above, open carry is a very sticky issue in Wisconsin. Wisconsin does not allow concealed carry and thus, allows open carry (without licensing) by default. However, there have been incidences of legally armed citizens being violently approached by officers, being charged for disorderly conduct, and having their firearms unlawfully confisiscated (even while on their own property!). I'm sure that you can appreciate that we do not want this to happen to a guest. In addition, since licensing is not required, allowing open carry in our Wisconsin restaurants may force us into situations where we allow certain individuals who look and act responsibly (such as yourselves) to open carry while discriminating against others who may look like thugs. Obviously, we do not want to be put into a situation where our managers have to make a judgement call based upon the appearance of an individual.
- We don't want our employees openly carrying firearms and if we allow guests to open carry, then it becomes difficult to justify employees not being allowed the same.
- Finally, we still want legally armed citizens to be able to practice their right to carry. Based on comments on this board, it appears that this point might be overlooked. Many companies do not allow this at all.

I understand that some may want to open carry in our restaurant. Based on comments on this topic, on comments on other topics, and discussion I've had with other firearm owners, however, I believe that most firearm owners simply want to carry their firearm for their safety and this is still accomplished with concealed carry.

Although open carry may be ideal, I think we can agree that this issue is greater than you or I. As we know, there is a significant portion of our population who are unknowledgable about firearms. From this context, I think that the correct response for all of us is to continue to educate the population on the importance of our right and of the additional safety that firearm carrying by lawful citizens creates. I think that we can all agree that fighting one another when we have the same overall objective is counterproductive.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this topic and please continue to educate the rest of the population, regardless of whether you choose to patronize our business or not.

Thank you,
Dave Lindenstruth

 

[ATM]

...Thank you for taking the time to discuss this topic and please continue to educate the rest of the population, regardless of whether you choose to patronize our business or not.

Thank you,
Dave Lindenstruth

And thank you for weighing in here. Welcome to INGO.

One of the best ways for me to educate the public is by letting them see me peacefully enjoying a meal with my family while armed.

By hiding it, there is no progress toward that goal.

I am quite willing to endure a silly check by the police when I carry openly.
My hope is that whomever called will still be there and see them leave and I will go back to whatever I was doing. They will learn by observing that the call was unnecessary and carrying must be legal.

Not that it has ever happened to me in 20 years of carrying, but it might one day.

My first trip to HuHot while openly carrying was both enjoyable and uneventful.
I'm sure it was noticed but nobody made any fuss whatsoever. That's normal.
Fussing is actually the very rare case here.

I'll definitely go back if you ever drop this new rule.
Otherwise, I'll be openly carrying and furthering our goal of normalizing the sight of armed citizens and educating the public by eating somewhere else.

Also as you noted: in Wisconsin, a rule requiring concealment is a de facto ban on any legal carry. You gotta admit... that kinda sucks.

Good discussion, though.

 

[Dave_L]

Follow-up

I would agree that your method of education would work for many, but for those who have irrational fears, this method may make the matter worse.

In regards to Wisconsin - here is an example of a situation that we do not want to happen in our restaurant for obvious reasons (taken from ‘Open-Carry’ Becoming Central Gun Rights Issue | Gun Digest - The World's Foremost Gun Information Authority):

According to multiple reports, on Aug 22, 2008, Krause was at home planting trees – with a holstered firearm on his side. That prompted a neighbor to call the police to ask if that was legal.
It wasn’t, at least to the West Allis police. The department dispatched two squad cars to his residence and, after approaching him with their weapons drawn, ultimately arrested him for disorderly conduct, says Gene German, a gun-rights advocate who has followed the case closely.
"The police had him standing in handcuffs on his own property for 45 minutes with squad cars parked in front of his residence while they tried to figure out a way to arrest him," says German, who is the state director of the American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors and one of the founders of Wisconsin Patriots, a grassroots organization whose declared mission is to "encourage our fellow citizens to restore, exercise and preserve their individual rights, including the right to be safe."
"They shortly discovered Brad had no criminal record and was lawfully openly carrying on his own property, but instead of releasing him and returning his weapon, they tried to figure out how to arrest him. A call to the supervising lieutenant provided the answer: claim his action of carrying a weapon is disorderly conduct, and haul him down to the station. His firearm was taken away from him without a receipt, and it has not been returned. The police have effectively banned his exercise of his right by disarming him."

 

[ATM]

I would agree that your method of education would work for many, but for those who have irrational fears, this method may make the matter worse.

I can only suggest that you might cater more to rational people.
Nothing you do is going to impact the patronage of irrational people.
After all, they are irrational.

In regards to Wisconsin - here is an example of a situation that we do not want to happen in our restaurant for obvious reasons...

Then ban Wisconsin police. Why disarm law-abiding citizens simply because the police might show up and make asses of themselves?

 

[Rookie]

First, thank you for your opinions. I imagine they won't be met without some criticism, and I'm impressed that you are willing to defend your decision.

Second, why wouldn't you want your employees to carry. If they are legally able to carry, then why would you discourage them? I can understand if you didn't want them to carry on the clock, but I don't agree with companies forcing hourly employees to abide by company rules when they are off the clock. I would be willing to bet that, with your firearms policy, any employee would be hesitant to east at your restaurant (on their day off) while they were legally armed.

Third. I understand your argument in regards to Wisconsin. That being said, I do not agree with it. Google the Madison five and you will see a few things happening with positive results. First, I truly believe that the courts are going to hand down a decision that puts the police on notice. I believe that they will be told, clearly, that harassing law abiding carriers will not be tolerated.
Second, the very next day, Culver's issued a statement, which also accomplished two things. First, it let the police know that they wanted the right to decide who they wanted to serve. They also let the citizens know that they were willing to stand behind the 2nd amendment. The result of the statement? I know that Wisconsin carriers use Culver's for meetings and there hasn't been any more negative interaction with police there.
Starbucks also sided with the 2nd amendment. I haven't heard either company complain that they've lost sales due to their decisions. I would venture to say, if this were the case, that some anti gun news source would have run with it long ago.

As I said before, I respect your decision. Unfortunately, I am unwilling to compromise my standards. My daughter's 17th birthday is today. Our family tradition is that the birthday girl/boy decides where the family eats that day. When she heard that your company was willing to support our rights (100%), she requested that we go to your restaurant. After hearing that your company has wavered in your support, she has decided that my family of six will be going to applebee's.