BOD Minutes and Carry Optics Statement

[riverman67]

At least we've got someone in the job that isn't a pro shooter padding their income with little to no work.

I completely agree
My feelings on co are personal.I was all geeked up to buy a new carry gun set up for optics. With the 10 round limit its just a non starter.
One would need to have at minimum 4 mags on their belt, 5 is better.
This leads to competition belts and we all know they have nothing to do with everyday carry.
If one was able to load their mags to capacity 2 mags on the belt would be plenty and you could shoot what you carried to match.
Still have to cool it off in parking lot, but I digress.

If the goal was to attract Timmie's ,excluding junk carry was a mistake.
Well we will see what happens but I am personally disappointed.

 

[Cowboy1629]

What... Carry a loaded gun when not on a course of fire??

I can't believe there are people walking around with loaded guns.

Oh, and I do agree with the rules for carry optics being retarded as Mr. Rhino put it so elegantly.

 

[bwframe]

I think another problem with a division like carry optics is that it does not fit with the majority of USPSA shooters and their actual habits.

Meaning that many don't carry regularly, or don't gear up and carry a suitable gun in a suitable fashion very often and most of them don't carry their game guns even on the way home. I think we spend a lot of time trying to carve a different niche than IDPA.

Perhaps I am wrong. ( It happened yesterday so surely it won't happen on back to back days) Most USPSA crowd, unload and show clear at the last stage, bag up their gun and go home unarmed. Maybe there is a five shot revolver in their pocket or gun in the glove box or console. Many of them don't carry a gun in a holster for a lot of reasons. So while they are gun people and shoot really well in most cases they are not carry people. Changing guns before a match and after a match is a pain in the ass and the rules contribute to the problem. If 90% of our members carried religiously I think things would be a lot different with our sport. Some differences might be good and some more problematic.

It's often a bit of a challenge to unload then later reload carry guns legitimately. Riding a motorcycle to matches takes away the often used, yet less than completely safe, "just load/unload in the car" option.

 

[sporter]

Meh 10 round mag limit doesn't bother me.

Even a person starting out with carry gear is going to end up with a competition belt once they start
Competing anyways.

Besides it's not like multiple mag changes are holding up Production shooters stage times anyways.

Carry Optics is a answer looking for a problem. I admit it intrigues me a bit, but there are other things that
could use attention in USPSA.

CO is already falling flat on its face and it has a lot to do with the marketing of USPSA (or lack there of).
CO was made for the tactical timmies, problem there is everyone in the Timmy world either does not know
USPSA exists or has been told by their instructor heroes that "competition will get them killed in the streets"
Maybe USPSA needs some of that fantasy gun camp marketing

Let's hope nuevo el pres and some of the others get things going
In the right direction.

 

[Coach]

It's often a bit of a challenge to unload then later reload carry guns legitimately. Riding a motorcycle to matches takes away the often used, yet less than completely safe, "just load/unload in the car" option.

Exactly.

 

[riverman67]

Meh 10 round mag limit doesn't bother me.

Even a person starting out with carry gear is going to end up with a competition belt once they start
Competing anyways.

Besides it's not like multiple mag changes are holding up Production shooters stage times anyways.

Carry Optics is a answer looking for a problem. I admit it intrigues me a bit, but there are other things that
could use attention in USPSA.

CO is already falling flat on its face and it has a lot to do with the marketing of USPSA (or lack there of).
CO was made for the tactical timmies, problem there is everyone in the Timmy world either does not know
USPSA exists or has been told by their instructor heroes that "competition will get them killed in the streets"
Maybe USPSA needs some of that fantasy gun camp marketing

Let's hope nuevo el pres and some of the others get things going
In the right direction.

I often shoot limited with a holster and 2 mag pouches attached to my everyday belt.
It's one of the reasons I like it.
I'm not going to do that in ss or production. It's just to many mag carriers to fit between belt loops.

 

[I'lltakethree]

Could it be that the 10 round limit is for states that have 10 round magazine limits? I'm confused as to why they approved something that no one wants or likes...

 

[g00n24]

I think another problem with a division like carry optics is that it does not fit with the majority of USPSA shooters and their actual habits.

Meaning that many don't carry regularly, or don't gear up and carry a suitable gun in a suitable fashion very often and most of them don't carry their game guns even on the way home. I think we spend a lot of time trying to carve a different niche than IDPA.

Perhaps I am wrong. ( It happened yesterday so surely it won't happen on back to back days) Most USPSA crowd, unload and show clear at the last stage, bag up their gun and go home unarmed. Maybe there is a five shot revolver in their pocket or gun in the glove box or console. Many of them don't carry a gun in a holster for a lot of reasons. So while they are gun people and shoot really well in most cases they are not carry people. Changing guns before a match and after a match is a pain in the ass and the rules contribute to the problem. If 90% of our members carried religiously I think things would be a lot different with our sport. Some differences might be good and some more problematic.

Really? I just assumed everyone kept their carry guns in their glove boxes and strapped back up when they left. I mean there certainly is a different crowd than IDPA matches, but that doesn't mean they don't carry regularly...but I may also be completely wrong about that.

 

[JMitch]

A gentleman never asks and a lady never tells.

 

[Coach]

Meh 10 round mag limit doesn't bother me.

Even a person starting out with carry gear is going to end up with a competition belt once they start
Competing anyways.

Besides it's not like multiple mag changes are holding up Production shooters stage times anyways.

Carry Optics is a answer looking for a problem. I admit it intrigues me a bit, but there are other things that
could use attention in USPSA.

CO is already falling flat on its face and it has a lot to do with the marketing of USPSA (or lack there of).
CO was made for the tactical timmies, problem there is everyone in the Timmy world either does not know
USPSA exists or has been told by their instructor heroes that "competition will get them killed in the streets"
Maybe USPSA needs some of that fantasy gun camp marketing

Let's hope nuevo el pres and some of the others get things going
In the right direction.

I shoot every division that I shoot with the same belt I wear every single day.

 

[Coach]

Really? I just assumed everyone kept their carry guns in their glove boxes and strapped back up when they left. I mean there certainly is a different crowd than IDPA matches, but that doesn't mean they don't carry regularly...but I may also be completely wrong about that.

Some do exactly what you are talking about. But at a WVPPS match of 60 to 70 shooters I bet we are talking about 10 or 15 that do it tops. Many just go home unarmed. Another 10-15 may have a loaded gun in the glove box or something like that but more than half do not. That is my impression from observation and discussions over the years.

 

[Coach]

Could it be that the 10 round limit is for states that have 10 round magazine limits? I'm confused as to why they approved something that no one wants or likes...

No one wanting it would be inaccurate, but many do no want it. As to the reasons that the powers that be do anything they do... Well there are as many reasons or theories to that as there are reasons that men take up with red-haired ladies.

 

[Snizz1911]

Was there ever any pros to this division?

-Limit to 10 round mags, everyone's mad bc not like real carry, antiquated, can't break stages down, whatever

-don't limit mags and you basically have poor mans open minor with crappy guns, more dumb

-no junk carry, everyone cries again

-no flashlights, but I carry with a surefire bro

There is not going to be a lot of success with a "sub category" division that already had a place to shoot, in open. But I'm guessing everyone who wanted to or did run a plastic gun with a slide ride optic probably got their feelings hurt in the standings, thus we need carry optics.
Or manufactures got their feelings hurt due to declining "market share," which again is stupid bc uspsa sales of production guns are such a small fraction. If part of your business model is to cater to uspsa production or carry optics division, you do not have a good business plan... That small.
Or uspsa didn't want to lose sponsorship of those companies, which again would contradict raising the weight limit to 43 oz.

Not a lot of winning going on here.

 

[rhino]

Really? I just assumed everyone kept their carry guns in their glove boxes and strapped back up when they left. I mean there certainly is a different crowd than IDPA matches, but that doesn't mean they don't carry regularly...but I may also be completely wrong about that.

I'm sure some do, but it's not a majority.

Here's a story:

There was a time when a group of us would go for dinner after the match at RileyCC. I carried openly all the time on my way home and I decided one time to encourage some of the others to do it as well. Several of the group went along with it (just one time), but during our meal I noticed that three of them had guns on their belts, but they were unloaded and didn't have any magazines on their belt. They were unclear on the concept because they rarely (if ever) carried a gun other than unloaded in a bag on the way to and from the range.

I shoot every division that I shoot with the same belt I wear every single day.

Me too.

Some do exactly what you are talking about. But at a WVPPS match of 60 to 70 shooters I bet we are talking about 10 or 15 that do it tops. Many just go home unarmed. Another 10-15 may have a loaded gun in the glove box or something like that but more than half do not. That is my impression from observation and discussions over the years.

That is a reasonable set of estimations. I would also say that while the law considers having a gun in the glove box or console "carrying," it's not really carrying a gun either in practice or in mindset. It's more like having a gun at home.



Back to the retarded restrictions on this new provisional division, I know several people who carry all the time with Trijicon RMRs on Glocks. Most of them carry in appendix position (for their primary) and none of them download to 10 rounds in their magazines (which would be retarded). Some of them have lights mounted as well. If USPSA is actually courting people like that, they're not even close to doing a good or effective job. They should either rethink silly mistakes like neutering standard magazine capacity and holster position or remove the word "carry" from the name.

 

[Grelber]

Was there ever any pros to this division?

.

Ok, Late winter is grouchy season, ain't nobody likes nuthin.

10 rounds is about perfect if you think reloads are fun, to me 8 round ss is just too much but 10 is fun.

Optics without the big costs and obnoxious crazy loud noise of open could also be a lot of fun.

 

[7920drew]

I look at the 10 round aspect of production (and now carry optics) as a way to measure the shooters ability to manipulate the gun on the clock. I think 10 rounds makes a big impact on stage planning and forces you to be able to adapt a little when you throw up some mikes or want to make up some less than perfect shots. Occasionally I will shoot a match with my production gear in limited to give me a break on the 20+ reloads usually required for a USPSA local match in production, but always assumed that was part of the challenge rather than a bow to ridiculous magazine capacity legislation. As far as holster position goes I would definitely agree that it would probably be a good idea and more inclusive to allow appendix carry since it's so popular.

 

[Coach]

The 10 rounds of Production and Limited 10 started due to magazine restrictions in the 1990's. IPSC has a 15 round production rule rather than 10.

 

[7920drew]

The 10 rounds of Production and Limited 10 started due to magazine restrictions in the 1990's. IPSC has a 15 round production rule rather than 10.

ya I'm with you there. Thankfully that era has passed. And hopefully it will not return. I guess I assumed that in the years since that was the law of the land, the rules had not been altered as a way to keep production division challenging and different from limited/open. 10 rounds and minor scoring certainly make me slow down a bit and make sure I get my hits (or pay the price). I really would not be too upset if there was or was not a mag capacity limit, but with one I see it as added difficulty and more skills that need to be kept up

 

[rhino]

If someone wants to practice reloading more, there is nothing in the rules to stop them from downloading their magazines by their own choice. That's a much better solution that placing an arbitrary limit on the entire division.

 

[Bosshoss]

USPSA is a GAME. I don't care if shooters carry to a match or not(I'm sure USPSA doesn't care either). That is their business. I just try to worry about myself.
I don't go to a match to train. I go to have fun and be with friends and work on my pistol craft. I do feel that shooting USPSA makes you better at handling your firearm under pressure and improves your abilities with firearms.
Not sure what a lot of this thread has to do with anything discussed by the BOD.

As for the 10 rounds in CO I don't have a problem with it. The 10 rounds in CO and Production for that matter makes things like stage breakdown and strategies a vital part of the GAME. Makes proficient reloading a priority.

A similar thread is going at the USPSA forum.
Here is The Presidents response to some of these questions.

" It became apparent that anything other than 10 would be difficult to enforce. Factory capacity requires a list, 15-16 made it difficult on RO staff, and length would require a gauge. There is a concerted effort to not measure or look-up anymore than is already necessary. Also, the poll data and emails we received indicated 10 rounds had the most fans. That really surprised me."

SO how many of you contacted USPSA and told them you were in favor of loading up the mags?
Sounds like those in favor of the 10 rounds voiced their opinion.