BOD Minutes and Carry Optics Statement

[Coach]

USPSA is a GAME. I don't care if shooters carry to a match or not(I'm sure USPSA doesn't care either). That is their business. I just try to worry about myself.
I don't go to a match to train. I go to have fun and be with friends and work on my pistol craft. I do feel that shooting USPSA makes you better at handling your firearm under pressure and improves your abilities with firearms.
Not sure what a lot of this thread has to do with anything discussed by the BOD.

As for the 10 rounds in CO I don't have a problem with it. The 10 rounds in CO and Production for that matter makes things like stage breakdown and strategies a vital part of the GAME. Makes proficient reloading a priority.

A similar thread is going at the USPSA forum.
Here is The Presidents response to some of these questions.

" It became apparent that anything other than 10 would be difficult to enforce. Factory capacity requires a list, 15-16 made it difficult on RO staff, and length would require a gauge. There is a concerted effort to not measure or look-up anymore than is already necessary. Also, the poll data and emails we received indicated 10 rounds had the most fans. That really surprised me."

SO how many of you contacted USPSA and told them you were in favor of loading up the mags?
Sounds like those in favor of the 10 rounds voiced their opinion.

The people that made the decision voiced their opinions. A list of mag size is and easy to have as the weight of the guns.

 

[rhino]

No one is asserting that USPSA is anything other than a game.

The points of contention are 1) a 10 rd limit is stupid, regardless of the division, but especially for a new division; 2) the name is CARRY optics, obviously referring to CARRY guns and ostensibly people who carry them. If they're going to call it "carry optics" and allegedly court people who carry those guns, they should made the rules consistent with how people carry the carry guns for which the division is name with carry in the title.

USPSA is a GAME. I don't care if shooters carry to a match or not(I'm sure USPSA doesn't care either). That is their business. I just try to worry about myself.
I don't go to a match to train. I go to have fun and be with friends and work on my pistol craft. I do feel that shooting USPSA makes you better at handling your firearm under pressure and improves your abilities with firearms.
Not sure what a lot of this thread has to do with anything discussed by the BOD.

As for the 10 rounds in CO I don't have a problem with it. The 10 rounds in CO and Production for that matter makes things like stage breakdown and strategies a vital part of the GAME. Makes proficient reloading a priority.

A similar thread is going at the USPSA forum.
Here is The Presidents response to some of these questions.

" It became apparent that anything other than 10 would be difficult to enforce. Factory capacity requires a list, 15-16 made it difficult on RO staff, and length would require a gauge. There is a concerted effort to not measure or look-up anymore than is already necessary. Also, the poll data and emails we received indicated 10 rounds had the most fans. That really surprised me."

SO how many of you contacted USPSA and told them you were in favor of loading up the mags?
Sounds like those in favor of the 10 rounds voiced their opinion.

 

[riverman67]

I voted in every poll about carry optics on the uspsa forums.
Why would enforcement of a factory length magazine, no extensions allowed, be a problem?

 

[Bosshoss]

The people that made the decision voiced their opinions. A list of mag size is and easy to have as the weight of the guns.

The people who voiced their opinions made the decision. I take it that you wasn't one of them.
So as a RO I need to carry a list and a scale to weigh guns and know how many shots a shooter can shoot before bumping them to open.
I have a hard enough time keeping track of 10 or 11 shots let alone 17-19.
They would need to change the range commands to "What kind of gun are you shooting? Make Ready" While I check my list

 

[Bosshoss]

I voted in every poll about carry optics on the uspsa forums.
Why would enforcement of a factory length magazine, no extensions allowed, be a problem?

Don't know I just quoted Mike's response.

 

[Bosshoss]

No one is asserting that USPSA is anything other than a game.

The points of contention are 1) a 10 rd limit is stupid, regardless of the division, but especially for a new division; 2) the name is CARRY optics, obviously referring to CARRY guns and ostensibly people who carry them. If they're going to call it "carry optics" and allegedly court people who carry those guns, they should made the rules consistent with how people carry the carry guns for which the division is name with carry in the title.

I think the name of the division is poor.
The name of the division is just the name of the division in a game. It has nothing to do with what a person carries for personal protection.
Like you said earlier Joe load up your magazines in the Glock and shoot open if you want the mags full.
Sounds like fun to me.

 

[Coach]

The people who voiced their opinions made the decision. I take it that you wasn't one of them.
So as a RO I need to carry a list and a scale to weigh guns and know how many shots a shooter can shoot before bumping them to open.
I have a hard enough time keeping track of 10 or 11 shots let alone 17-19.
They would need to change the range commands to "What kind of gun are you shooting? Make Ready" While I check my list

You take it wrong. I did voice my opinion. I stand by my first statement.

ROing is not that hard. Guns get weighed at Chrono in two different divisions and people get bumped there. Factory magazines without extentions can be enforced with a glance just like holster position and mag pouch position. Having worked more than a few big matches in various capacities ranging from RO to RM to MD I have a fair bit of experience in trying to enforce the letter and the spirit of the rules. Letting Carry Optics load to capacity would be easy to enforce compared to a number of other rules we have and have had for years.

I am not surprised that you favor ten rounds. You wanted revolver to stay six rounds. You are consistent I will give you that.

 

[Bosshoss]

I am not surprised that you favor ten rounds. You wanted revolver to stay six rounds. You are consistent I will give you that.

I never said I was in favor of the 10 round limit. I said I didn't have a problem with it and I don't.

I'm not sure what I wanted for revolver division has to do with this.
This is a new/provisional division and people being upset because the rules are not the way they wanted them is very different than changing the rules in a division that has been around for a long time.(and making shooters have to buy new guns to remain competitive while killing the value of the the guns they were shooting)

Consistent is what I strive for

 

[jakemartens]

Mike had additional response
Posted 20 hours ago · Report post

That was the smallest poll data here, yes. There were 172 responses to several of the questions, which is more people than have shot CO to date. All of the AD's had numerous emails and other types of contact, as did I.
I heard about 50/50 as I traveled around and discussed capacity with members as well. I also am getting about 50% praise and 50% hate mail too.
Certain Areas are pre-disposed to 10 rounds too.
I suspect we will review all of the CO decisions again in January.
I'd never say never, but a low round count, or an unlimited one, both eliminate issues. HQ doesn't make this decision, the Board does.
I offered options for consideration at 10, 15, 16, and factory capacity. We collectively arrived back at 10 after much deliberation.



I was in the room, there was a very detailed report given by Mike that covered polls from websites, online discussions, emails that he and BOD members had received and comments from Manufacturers and people from within the industry.
Each area of CO was discussed, right down to if they should vote to rename the division.
Based on feedback from the membership that was presented 10 rounds was the overwhelming majority of responses that they received.
I have had the unique opportunity to be in on a few of the minutes over the last year, I will tell that right now you have an extremely receptive BoD that want, NEED, your input.
They want to hear from the membership, they are all wanting to move in the direction that best serves the members.
Call them, email them, get in on the discussion on the uspsa forums.

 

[rvb]

It's bad enough they continue to observe a 10 round limit in Production Division. Creating a new division specifically for carry guns with optics that will be carried with 15-19 rounds in their magazines, but forcing the shooters to only load 10 rounds for matches is downright retarded.

I'm always in the minority on this (or maybe not as the BoD never makes changes...)

but 15 - 19 rounds...
So which gun is going to be more competitive? One w/ 15 or one w/ 19? Hello Arms race, here we come. No need for folks to show up w/ a compact they might actually carry. You guys assume everyone carries a full size gun everywhere. I'm a big proponent of the 10-round game for production/carry divisions for this very reason. I've got a guy at our club still running his carry G26 in production. I occasionally use my G19. What if a guy puts a dot on a compact and wants to try CO and realizes his gun is at a disadvantage? I see it the exact opposite of you guys...IMO maxing out full-sized mags will mean more people bag the carry gun and bust out a gamer match gun due to capacity. IPSC had to stop the arms/capacity race and went 15 round limit... most of their members aren't allowed to carry so it's all about the gamer gear; they don't have to worry about scaring off folks wanting to shoot their compacts.

Some people actually carry compacts / mid-size guns. Moving to have 15 - 19 rounds is the same as telling them to go buy a gamer setup...

the big issue w/ 10 is what? a fear you'll reload after 10 "in the streets" out of habit? nothing says you have to practice w/ just 10. so unless match day is your only shooting time, that's not even a legit concern...

2c

-rvb

 

[rvb]

I often shoot limited with a holster and 2 mag pouches attached to my everyday belt.
It's one of the reasons I like it.
I'm not going to do that in ss or production.

going to 15 rounds wouldn't really change anything. you'd still need 3 on the belt minimum (unless you don't believe in backups). I use 4 on the belt now w/ the 10 round limit (need 3, one is a BU). 3 vs 4 mags on the belt is a deal breaker?

-rvb

 

[Coach]

Why are we afraid of an arms race? (status quo stifles innovation)
Why do we restrict magazine capacity anywhere?
Why are so many people afraid that someone might be doing what they want and having fun?
Why does the gun industry get input on how the divisions in our sport are run?
Why would someone choose to carry a small gun on the street?
Why should the rest of us who carry a full size gun be forced to deal with rules for those who don't carry full size guns?
Why do I have to have an optic on the gun in Carry Optics but not in Open?
Why put a weight on the gun that pushes people to Glock, Springfield's and Smith and Wesson over CZ?
Why is USPSA set up to require so many mags to shoot? (this keeps new shooters out more than anything else)

 

[kevinsr98]

Why are we afraid of an arms race? (status quo stifles innovation)
Why do we restrict magazine capacity anywhere?
Why are so many people afraid that someone might be doing what they want and having fun?
Why does the gun industry get input on how the divisions in our sport are run?
Why would someone choose to carry a small gun on the street?
Why should the rest of us who carry a full size gun be forced to deal with rules for those who don't carry full size guns?
Why do I have to have an optic on the gun in Carry Optics but not in Open?
Why put a weight on the gun that pushes people to Glock, Springfield's and Smith and Wesson over CZ?
Why is USPSA set up to require so many mags to shoot? (this keeps new shooters out more than anything else)

Very true...

 

[VTDad]

Why do conservative vegetarians not eat meat and liberal vegetarians want to outlaw butcher shops....

It is human nature. The strong adapt and survive. The weak need rules to limit others so they survive.

Rich gun owners can buy the best guns and the weak need to live with what they can afford. Wait a minute... I'm a poor conservative, I'll never be able to consistently afford a competitive Carry Optics gun. To maintain my competitive advantage, I want more limits. Does that make me a Liberal?

Now I'm terribly confused as a conservative. ******!!!!

 

[kevinsr98]

Why do conservative vegetarians not eat meat and liberal vegetarians want to outlaw butcher shops....

It is human nature. The strong adapt and survive. The weak need rules to limit others so they survive.

Rich gun owners can buy the best guns and the weak need to live with what they can afford. Wait a minute... I'm a poor conservative, I'll never be able to consistently afford a competitive Carry Optics gun. To maintain my competitive advantage, I want more limits. Does that make me a Liberal?

Now I'm terribly confused as a conservative. ******!!!!

never post when you've been drinking bro...

 

[BillD]

never post when you've been drinking bro...

Oh man, I'm going to have to quit posting...

 

[riverman67]

going to 15 rounds wouldn't really change anything. you'd still need 3 on the belt minimum (unless you don't believe in backups). I use 4 on the belt now w/ the 10 round limit (need 3, one is a BU). 3 vs 4 mags on the belt is a deal breaker?

-rvb

It is for me
That won't matter in the big scheme of things.

 

[BJones]

Why are we afraid of an arms race? (status quo stifles innovation)
Why do we restrict magazine capacity anywhere?
Why are so many people afraid that someone might be doing what they want and having fun?
Why does the gun industry get input on how the divisions in our sport are run?
Why would someone choose to carry a small gun on the street?
Why should the rest of us who carry a full size gun be forced to deal with rules for those who don't carry full size guns?
Why do I have to have an optic on the gun in Carry Optics but not in Open?
Why put a weight on the gun that pushes people to Glock, Springfield's and Smith and Wesson over CZ?
Why is USPSA set up to require so many mags to shoot? (this keeps new shooters out more than anything else)

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I carry a Kahr. Six plus one, and a spare seven round magazine. I like production because it forces me to reload more. It forces me to think more in my stage planning. It may be a game, but it has helped me improve my gun handling. If I can get that, and have fun. It's a win win for me.

 

[VTDad]

If we are taking a pole, I think a carry optic rules should allow the gun to hold what the factory designed it to hold. No mag extensions. There will be plenty of people complaining about this is unfair or that is not right. I never liked not being able to fill my mag and go.