Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?

[manwithnoname]

I'd rather take the chance of "might" rather than "none"

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

I always prefer my chances being armed than my chances being unarmed.

Further, I am disgusted by those that would attempt to deprive me of that decision.

 

[BlueEagle]

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

I always prefer my chances being armed than my chances being unarmed.

Further, I am disgusted by those that would attempt to deprive me of that decision.

Exactly.

We'll never know how it would have played out if a sheepdog had been present....but we do know that generally, sheep survive longer with sheepdogs around. I think that's really all we can say about this.

 

[rnmcguire]

It's really impossible to say how effective one would be in that situation. The place was dark, loud, and the CS gas would hinder you somewhat especially if you've never experienced its effects. Honestly in this kind of situation it would seem the best course of action would be to subdue to individual. When he stopped shooting to reload, someone could have jumped on the guy. I would rather have a weapon for sure but the reality of a shootout with someone carrying an AR/Shotgun while wearing body armor doesn't sound too good. With all that being said I would take my chances with my weapon anyday rather than to rely on fate/luck to survive.

 

[churchmouse]

Realistically, its all situation dependent. The fact that he popped CS or OC canisters, with all the smoke clouding up and people running in a mass panic, you would have to make a command decision.

IF you were able to get to the right position, proper cover/concealment.
IF you were able to get a clear shot, realizing that he's wearing protection and no innocent people in the way.
IF you were able to withstand the effects of the CS or OC canister.
IF you had a proper light, weapon or handheld, to properly ID/distract him.
IF you were able to do all of this without being trampled.

Then, Yes, a LTCH holder could make a valid attempt to stop this incident. But there are so many factors, it's hard to tell what anybody would do. Except for maybe a combat veteran, who has already trained in these scenarios and/or been shot at. I would like to think that a LTCH holder could have make a difference and rise to the occasion, but under times of extreme stress, we all default to our highest level of training.

How many of us have been under the effects of CS/OC canisters? It gets hard to get a clear shot with tears in your eyes, snot dripping down your nose and alot of coughing. How many of us train under conditions this extreme?

I'm not trying to put any of us sheepdogs down, just pointing that there were so many variables and the probability of an innocent person getting caught in the crossfire of your weapon is extremely high as well. But, just having a LTCH holder there, increases the odds that there wouldn't be as many casualities.

Worked in the Ammonia based refrigeration industry for years. Not dealt with CS/OC directly but anhydrous ammonia is far more lethal. Work around it foe a while and you know how to handle yourself. There is a built up immunity to such things. That said I am one in thousands so the issue remains As you state. How many regular everyday folks would advance on the shooter in this scenario. Would they know in the confusion to attempt a head shot.
Could they make such a shot. How many LTCH holders actually shoot their weapons tactically. How many actually shoot them, ever. We know folks who own and carry but their total round count is embarrassingly low. A direct take down may have been the way t deal with this. How many un-trained among us would attempt this when loved ones were in danger.
For me it would depend on many factors. Position, panicked innocents running amok and getting in the line of fire, protecting loved ones or just being face down under heavy fire, range to target etc. etc.
Would I have made an attempt at stopping him, yes, I would like to think so.
This is just nuts and is happening all to often.

 

[chachi73]

Imagine multiple LTCH holders engaging simultaneously. I don't believe he would have continued with his attack. He wasn't expecting any resistance, he knew he was entering a GFZ.

hell yes...multiple carriers COULD have lit his ass up. quick side note...I was talking to a neighbor that isn't into guns about this yesterday. He said something like "it makes you want to go out and get a gun permit because of whackos like this, you know". i said I hope you're right, as my hand was resting comfortably on the butt of my pocketed P3AT. Made me think that reasonable people may change their minds about knee jerk gun control proposals that seem to accompany terrible shooting like this.

 

[churchmouse]

to be fair, those people who did nothing, performed under stress exactly how they trained.


think about it.

I have. It is scary. Folks are reliant on being protected and have ne real idea what to do in any violent confrontation.

 

[CX1]

I never leave home without a Knife. I look at it as a tool, and a SD weapon, just like my pistol. All it would take is someone to distract him long enough for someone to take him down.

Yeah sure, but who is going to volunteer to be the distraction aka bullet catcher in a situation like that?

Are you going to risk attracting the shooters attention when you pop up with your knife knowing everyone hiding in the same row of seats aka your loved ones would then be in the shooters cone of fire?

Plus some people are just not considering how fast it all happened. With the smoke and disorientation from all the noise (that had to be shockingly loud in the confines of the theater) by the time most people could process exactly what was happening and what they could effectively do to counter the shooter he was already back in the parking lot.

People have brought up how people fought back on flight 93 and disparage the movie crowd as sheep and cowards.
However there are three key differences between the situations.

1. Occurring on an airplane they knew waiting it out for outside rescue was not an option.

2. They had time to process the situation and coordinate with other passengers to plan their counter attack.

3. The passengers knew they and maybe thousands of others were going to definitely die if they did nothing. Keeping their head down and having a chance of survival was not an option.

 

[Ricnzak]

I fully expect a lawsuit againt the theater and Simon properties for their "no gun" policy. If that happens, maybe we will see fewer "no gun" signs in other places.

Mark

Nice thought but will never happen.

 

[Sylvain]

I have. It is scary. Folks are reliant on being protected and have ne real idea what to do in any violent confrontation.

They are trained and prepared, they all carried cell phones and knew how to use them.
Their training kicked in and they called 911 as soon as they felt their lives were in danger, and they waited for the police to show up.

 

[Mackey]

Yes.
Body armor is not a force field. Any 9mm to 40 or 45 cal is going to get someone's attention and possibly stun or even incapacitate them, at least allow an opportunity to get in close and personal.

But who's going to do that. This is the equivalent of throwing yourself on a grenade. Too many questions, too much stimuli, too little time to consider the options.
What if he's all rigged with explosives? You've just killed more than may have been if you'd kept your seat.

Damn.

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

They are trained and prepared, they all carried cell phones and knew how to use them.
Their training kicked in and they called 911 as soon as they felt their lives were in danger, and they waited for the police to show up.

Uh, no.

The first thing they did was put their face on the floor and seek an exit, per the eyewitness accounts.

 

[cobber]

Nice thought but will never happen.

If the would-be Kroger robber's Mom can sue, then Impossible is Nothing!

 

[RabbleRouser]

getting shot while wearing body armor still hurts, a lot. while modern body armor will keep most small arms rounds from penetrating, the kinetic energy is still transferred into the person. getting shot in a vest with a round even as small as a 9mm still hits like a hammerblow, severe bruising, cracked ribs and it will knock the wind out of you.

 

[TopDog]

There is a lot of debate here, what if's.
I know two things for certain:

1. Do nothing and 12 people die.
2. Its better to die fighting than to die on your knees like a sheep at slaughter.

 

[ckcollins2003]

I'd rather take the chance of "might" rather than "none"

Ballistic helmets will not stop a direct hit. FSTF!

 

[churchmouse]

They are trained and prepared, they all carried cell phones and knew how to use them.
Their training kicked in and they called 911 as soon as they felt their lives were in danger, and they waited for the police to show up.

That is what is expected of the sheeple. No disrespect for those injured and dead. I am heavy hearted for the loss. As with the 9/11 plane passengers, I can not even imagine not kicking someones A$$ if I knew they intended to kill me.
To those that were being hit in the head with spent casings.....What are you thinking now. This is a prime example of living in a dream world. Problem is, he was not a criminal. He could walk in anywhere and not draw attention. SA would not have alerted anyone in the fire zone. This is just all wrong.

 

[churchmouse]

There is a lot of debate here, what if's.
I know two things for certain:

1. Do nothing and 12 people die.
2. Its better to die fighting than to die on your knees like a sheep at slaughter.

Yup...........

 

[sj kahr k40]

I've neve been shot with a vest on but I did get punched in the chest will wearing one and it hurt, left a bruise and knocked the wind out of me, I can imagine a bullet would do something similar or worse

 

[churchmouse]

So, pounding him with direct shots from a .45 ACP would have diverted his attention or would the adrenaline from gleefully killing and maiming innocent folks have put the pain on the back burner until he was depleted of ammo.

 

[GBuck]

Of course someone carrying a gun COULD have done something. Silly question in my opinion.

Now, just because it COULD have made a difference does not mean that it would have.