Obama admin: Standards dropped, women to Ranger school

[hornadylnl]

The rangers haven't been this hacked off since the black beret deal.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

LLAD: Ranger School welcomes women, drops standards « WeaponsMan

Betting the drop-out rate for them won't be very high...

I bet the instructor dismissal rate will be through the roof because most are going to fail whomever when they cant cut it. Most of those guys will not compromise no matter who is telling them too.

No time to really respond to this but the standards started to be re-vamped last year with more sleep allowed and more food (some of the biggest hurdles in Ranger school).

If you live long enough, all this stuff seems to come around again. When I was a new WO1 at Ft. Bragg in 1972, the Army was expanding the Special Forces for the first time and apparently (as told to me by the SF guys who were on the Orienteering Team with me) it was the first time non-SF-qualified personnel - including female soldiers - who were assigned as support personnel for the Groups and the JFK Center were being allowed to wear the Green Beret.

About 10-15 years later, the Ranger Qualification course started letting/requiring students carry cold weather sleeping bags and started giving them more food because of a couple deaths that occurred during training.

At about the same time, the Army decided that women would be allowed to fill flight crew positions, so we started getting our first female officer and warrant officer flight school students. Again, because it was an EEOC issue, standards were lowered - and from all I have heard, the first crop of female graduates were rousing failures (although this may have had something to do with the culture as well).

When we started getting our first female pilots in the Indiana Guard, the pattern was pretty much the same for the first 10 years or so, but the latest crop before I retired seem to have "come of age". I suspect that is because our instructors and leaders required the same level of skill and performance from them as they did for the men, and the women responded to that expectation.

Now, there's a fair bit of difference between the physical conditioning and skills needed to get through Ranger training and that needed to get through flight school. Infantry work requires a great deal of physical activity and the ability to endure all the vagaries of weather and environment and keep humping through all sorts of deprivations. (Flight school - for helicopters - merely requires the ability to balance a broomstick on your palm while jogging and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance while listening to navigation directions over a transistor radio )

I said all that to say this: While I expect standards will be lowered so that women can successfully complete the Ranger course now, eventually, they will be raised, fewer women will apply, and only those who successfully meet the same standards as the men will be awarded the Ranger Tab. It may take 10 years or so, or it may be less if combat shows that the lower standards aren't producing the caliber of personnel needed. For now, like it was for old-time SF personnel in 1972, it's just a PITA.

 

[Pocketman]

I once told a newly minted female police officer that women didn't belong patrolling the streets. A few months later I watched her kick the crap out of a couple of guys in a bar fight. Just sayin'

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Effectiveness of the Rangers doesn't matter. It all about symbolism over substance. C'mon, everyone. You should have a clear understianding of that by now.

SHEESH!

 

[traderdan]

I once told a newly minted female police officer that women didn't belong patrolling the streets. A few months later I watched her kick the crap out of a couple of guys in a bar fight. Just sayin'

Exceptions to the rule do not prove that the rule is incorrect.....The standards should remain the same.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Hey Michelle Rodriguez does it...

 

[HICKMAN]

Seems to me, instead of letting women become 11B's and prove they should able earn the right to attempt RIP, they are just going to make Ranger School another form of leadership course.


As a former Signal sarge, I've got no horse in the race, but it seems to me that it is something that should be earned.

Why not make them earn the blue cord and an EIB first? Why do they get to just jump right in to get a tab?

I'm sure if/when this becomes a reality, we'll be hearing more about it.

 

[Westside]

my problem is not with women going through ranger training. It is with the lowering of the standards. They have standards for a reason, anyone who can meet the standard can earn a tab.

 

[mike8170]

my problem is not with women going through ranger training. It is with the lowering of the standards. They have standards for a reason, anyone who can meet the standard can earn a tab.

This^^^^^

Lowering of the standards is completely wrong. I don't remember any change in standards for females in either Airborne, Pathfinder, or Air Assualt schools. It was the same across the board. And there is no reason to deny these schools to the rear-echlon types, because even if the Soldier cannot be or is not assigned to combat arms, the courses give knowledge on how things work on the battlefield. Pathfinder is a great example, especially with supply. Supply personell learn the proper way to rig and pack loads that the guys on the ground need.

Ranger school and S.F. qualification courses are totally different though. Both are geared towards direct ground combat. Therefore, no reason to send females to these schools. It is a complete waste of money and resources.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Odierno eyes more expansion of women's combat roles in the fall - News - Stripes

The quotes I have read are not statements that claim women "will" be permitted in ranger school, but that it seems likely.

The stars and strips article does not seem to mention standards being lowered.

 

[Pocketman]

Exceptions to the rule do not prove that the rule is incorrect.....The standards should remain the same.

I too agree with standards. Has anyone found anything to corroborate the article cited in the OP?

 

[Wine Country]

Why, I bet they'll be letting the blacks in next.

Seriously. Get over it.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Why, I bet they'll be letting the blacks in next.

Seriously. Get over it.

Sorry, wrong simile. More like: next they'll be letting 12 year olds in. On average, males have more upper body strength than females. Race has nothing to do with it; gender does.

We experienced some of the same problems when women started becoming mechanics and crew chiefs. Some were fine with the crew duties but couldn't hack the "mechanical" part of the job; they rapidly transitioned to desk jobs (usually with a promotion). I don't have a problem with with a woman who can hump an M240 to and from a helicopter along with the guys (although these days they're more likely to load them onto a gator and drive out to the aircraft), but they have to be able to fix the aircraft as well. Same thing goes for any women in combat jobs; they have to be able to hack the physical end. It's not bigotry or misogyny, it's common sense and NO STANDARDS should ever be lowered to allow women to compete in the physically-demanding MOSs.

 

[mike8170]

Why, I bet they'll be letting the blacks in next.

Seriously. Get over it.

What was your MOS???

 

[HICKMAN]

I too agree with standards. Has anyone found anything to corroborate the article cited in the OP?

well looky there:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/17/us-usa-women-rangers-idUSBRE84G00820120517

 

[HICKMAN]

Seriously. Get over it.

Should we just go ahead and drop basic training?

Or I know, we'll just get rid of using enlistment contracts, just let them quit if they get tired of it.

Hey, I know, we'll just give everyone a beret.... oh... wait...

 

[HICKMAN]

all saying the same thing

Army Reviews Whether Women Can Go to Ranger School - ABC News

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/05/ap-army-leaders-mull-sending-women-ranger-school-051612/

http://www.kgwn.tv/story/18437747/army-reviews-whether-women-can-go-to-ranger-school

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Why do I get the impression some are thinking its like little league baseball and everyone should get to play? The standards are there for a reason. Lowering the standards on some things for ligitimate reasons (the game may one day change in some areas)would be one thing, but doing it for the sake of simply getting females to compleat the training requirements is beyond words. They act like its a game.

 

[J_Wales]

I love women... but can they scale the cliffs of Pointe-Du-Hoc? Under fire?

 

[iChokePeople]

Why not make them earn the blue cord and an EIB first? Why do they get to just jump right in to get a tab?

To be fair, non-infantry folks have been going to Ranger school for a loooong time. That ship's sailed. Officers in any branch have been able to attend Ranger school for AT LEAST 20 years. Even ROTC cadets can, and do, go between their junior and senior year of college. Right? Wrong? Won't argue that, but IS.

I don't remember any change in standards for females in either Airborne, Pathfinder, or Air Assualt schools.

You meant this in purple, right?