officer injured in shootout with armored suspect

[88GT]

Horrible situation.

Frankly, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often, particularly in the eviction context.

Hush your mouth.

So how is it related? He's not the first cop killer to wear armor, and he won't be the last. If he was wearing armor or wasn't wearing armor, would it enter into your decision making on if you'd support the armor ban or not? How about if I showed you confirmed cases of cop killers wearing body armor? Home invaders wearing armor? Armored car hold up men wearing armor? Would that matter?

That's what I'm asking. If it matters, why? If it turns out he wasn't wearing armor, then the cry will be its just demonization by the media, armor played to role. If he was wearing armor, the cry will be its an isolated incident, you can't regulate it, anyone can cut scrap steel, etc. So who cares? We aren't going to see any "militarization of civilians" threads, any threads about how he used armor to violate the property rights of his landlord and then to murder a cop, etc. With the civilian, the conversation here is always "its not about the tools, its about the actions" yet when its about the police, suddenly the tools become the focus for many people.

For the love of all that's holy, just stop. You're making an issue where none exists. It's nothing more than a curiosity issue and you're acting like people are making wild-ass assumptions on conspiracy theories.

Do you want to know what my first thought was: Did he break in or did he use a key he still had in his possession, and if the latter, why in the hell did the landlord not swap locks?

 

[T.Lex]

I actually think BBI has a valid point (as I understand it).

Other than, as you note, fashion curiosity factor, does it matter if dude wore "body armor"? Would it impact INGOers' thoughts on whether there should be "body armor" regulation? I have my own thoughts, but I think BBI is trying to draw that out of people.

On the other parts, it is worth recognizing that there is an INGO double standard when it comes to police. Actually, I think it reflects the greater societal double standard for police. I often talk about it with LEO friends/family/colleagues. Police are treated differently - for good or for bad - because of their role in society.

Of course, apologies if I'm speaking out of turn. BBI obviously can carry his own water on this.

 

[Wild Deuce]

*

 

[Gluemanz28]

Hush your mouth.


For the love of all that's holy, just stop. You're making an issue where none exists. It's nothing more than a curiosity issue and you're acting like people are making wild-ass assumptions on conspiracy theories.

Do you want to know what my first thought was: Did he break in or did he use a key he still had in his possession, and if the latter, why in the hell did the landlord not swap locks?

I completely agree 88GT. Many of us have committed on what a tragedy it was for the loss of the officer. The same people have asked questions to help us understand and learn from the tragedy. I joined INGO for several reasons and one was to learn.

I have gotten caught up with a LEO on here taking something I said the wrong way, when I was in fact standing beside and with him only to be verbally attacked. Even when explained by myself and others it was never made right. I lost all respect that I had for him, which was a lot. The shooting of a LEO is hard on other officers, but it affects us all.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Feel free to add me to your ignore list if you don't want to read what I have to say. However take a look at post #18 if you don't think there's some dancing around the tin foil hat going on. "I'm not tin foil" is the same as "I don't mean to be rude but..."

If you don't see the double standard, how many threads do we have on civilians acquiring cast off military gear? Perhaps broken down by county. How many comparisons do we have to anything a civilian is wearing to what a "soldier in Afghanistan" is wearing? Why if we're talking carrying long guns in public and someone mentions it scares some folks, that's the cost of freedom and its that sheeple's fault he's scared, but if my uniform has extra pockets and looks like BDU's, its intimidating and shouldn't be done? Complaints about the waste of tax money that used Kevlar helmets are on the market significantly cheaper to the person who acquires it than the taxpayer funded government initially paid for it? If you really don't see the "Its the person not the gear" vs the "its the gear not the person" depending on who's being discussed, I can't help you.

Again, feel free to ignore me. It's easier than actually examining what I said.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

RIP Nickolaus Schultz. SMFH.

 

[mom45]

No matter what you all want to bicker about, there is an officer who has died here. He has donated his organs and because of that act, many others will get a new lease on life. His death is a horrible tragedy for his family and the officers who served with him. I know when the officer in Indy was shot, there were many on here changing their avatars, putting blue lights on their houses, etc. How about we take some time to honor this man who has lost his life. There is a "lights on" campaign going on in the area where he served. Maybe we need to expand that and show some support for his family.

There were two more officers shot in Charleston County (South Carolina) and one has died. I have heard that the second did as well, but news reports do not seem to confirm that at this time.

 

[Gluemanz28]

No matter what you all want to bicker about, there is an officer who has died here. He has donated his organs and because of that act, many others will get a new lease on life. His death is a horrible tragedy for his family and the officers who served with him. I know when the officer in Indy was shot, there were many on here changing their avatars, putting blue lights on their houses, etc. How about we take some time to honor this man who has lost his life. There is a "lights on" campaign going on in the area where he served. Maybe we need to expand that and show some support for his family.

There were two more officers shot in Charleston County (South Carolina) and one has died. I have heard that the second did as well, but news reports do not seem to confirm that at this time.

Very well put Mom45

My lamppost has the blue lamp still burning in it. My bottle of glue is still blue and I changed my location to Going Blue For MPD. I'm not tooting my own horn by any means, just stating what I do. I take the extra time to pray for all the men and women that put the badge on daily. I take time to thank an officer that I come in contact with for his or her service. I do all of this out of respect. That is how I was raised. The lack of respect that is present in this thread does nothing but disrespect the fallen officer.

 

[Tombs]

Could have sold his guns and armor to cover another month's rent while he looked for a job.

Yet another person incapable of making the right choices in life, and they made yet another but took someone else with them. Shame.

Feel free to add me to your ignore list if you don't want to read what I have to say. However take a look at post #18 if you don't think there's some dancing around the tin foil hat going on. "I'm not tin foil" is the same as "I don't mean to be rude but..."

If you don't see the double standard, how many threads do we have on civilians acquiring cast off military gear? Perhaps broken down by county. How many comparisons do we have to anything a civilian is wearing to what a "soldier in Afghanistan" is wearing? Why if we're talking carrying long guns in public and someone mentions it scares some folks, that's the cost of freedom and its that sheeple's fault he's scared, but if my uniform has extra pockets and looks like BDU's, its intimidating and shouldn't be done? Complaints about the waste of tax money that used Kevlar helmets are on the market significantly cheaper to the person who acquires it than the taxpayer funded government initially paid for it? If you really don't see the "Its the person not the gear" vs the "its the gear not the person" depending on who's being discussed, I can't help you.

Again, feel free to ignore me. It's easier than actually examining what I said.

Agree or disagree, it's an issue of disparity of force.

If the general public had the option of buying what these police departments are buying, I don't think you'd see too much criticism. Especially if they could get it for that kind of price.

 

[DurangoUSMC]

No matter what you all want to bicker about, there is an officer who has died here. He has donated his organs and because of that act, many others will get a new lease on life. His death is a horrible tragedy for his family and the officers who served with him. I know when the officer in Indy was shot, there were many on here changing their avatars, putting blue lights on their houses, etc. How about we take some time to honor this man who has lost his life. There is a "lights on" campaign going on in the area where he served. Maybe we need to expand that and show some support for his family.

There were two more officers shot in Charleston County (South Carolina) and one has died. I have heard that the second did as well, but news reports do not seem to confirm that at this time.

Very well said. My thoughts and prayers are with the officer, and those he has left behind. May his friends, family, brothers and sisters in arms, and community find solace in his sacrifice and honor and cherish their memories of him.

 

[spaniel]

Feel free to add me to your ignore list if you don't want to read what I have to say. However take a look at post #18 if you don't think there's some dancing around the tin foil hat going on. "I'm not tin foil" is the same as "I don't mean to be rude but..."

If you don't see the double standard, how many threads do we have on civilians acquiring cast off military gear? Perhaps broken down by county. How many comparisons do we have to anything a civilian is wearing to what a "soldier in Afghanistan" is wearing? Why if we're talking carrying long guns in public and someone mentions it scares some folks, that's the cost of freedom and its that sheeple's fault he's scared, but if my uniform has extra pockets and looks like BDU's, its intimidating and shouldn't be done? Complaints about the waste of tax money that used Kevlar helmets are on the market significantly cheaper to the person who acquires it than the taxpayer funded government initially paid for it? If you really don't see the "Its the person not the gear" vs the "its the gear not the person" depending on who's being discussed, I can't help you.

Again, feel free to ignore me. It's easier than actually examining what I said.

Of course there is a double standard. Appearances matter. When private citizens buy such gear, they typically aren't donning it and confronting other citizens or police in it. However when police don such gear, bring in armored vehicles, and confront the public, it sets a decidedly negative tone (just look at Ferguson). Context most certainly matters.

I'm not going to set you to ignore, in general you seem a decent individual. But I think you need to consider the context of use on this one.

Prayers sent for the officer and his family, truly unnecessary pain.

 

[Excalibur]

Of course there is a double standard. Appearances matter. When private citizens buy such gear, they typically aren't donning it and confronting other citizens or police in it. However when police don such gear, bring in armored vehicles, and confront the public, it sets a decidedly negative tone (just look at Ferguson). Context most certainly matters.

I find that people don't like the idea of a more armed and equipped police force but clamor for police protection constantly. I don't believe there's a happy middle ground. Cops have one of the most dangerous jobs around and should be allowed to be protected against any threat. Of course, I don't understand the need for police tactical gear to be in camo colors when they work in urban environments.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Agree or disagree, it's an issue of disparity of force.

If the general public had the option of buying what these police departments are buying, I don't think you'd see too much criticism. Especially if they could get it for that kind of price.

What about the much greater disparity of force when compared with the equipment the National Guard has? Coast Guard? What about the military? Does that much greater disparity of force concern you? It doesn't me. I don't care that the Coast Guard has .50 cals or that the National Guard has helicopters, even though I can't counteract either. Why? Because I don't think I'm going to have to fight them. I don't believe they are the bad guys, nor do I believe they are likely to become the bad guys. I want them to have the equipment to safely do their job when they confront people who are bad guys.

Of course there is a double standard. Appearances matter. When private citizens buy such gear, they typically aren't donning it and confronting other citizens or police in it. However when police don such gear, bring in armored vehicles, and confront the public, it sets a decidedly negative tone (just look at Ferguson). Context most certainly matters.

Of course context matters. However there is a big difference in "I don't think you should have it" vs "I don't think you should use it in a certain manner." Context matters in carrying long guns, too. No one bats at eye at the gun in hunter orange carrying a shotgun into the woods. More eyes are batted at the guy walking around Chipotle with it slung over his back. A point that's frequently lost in the discussion, no doubt. That's why many of the LEO's here will take the time to try and explain why certain things are done in certain ways, because we know context matters. Think of the bad PR Tasers got, especially for awhile when they were being portrayed as causing heart attacks. People who don't know any better will have a biased opinion unless they are educated to the reality. Once people understand the Taser, it loses its stigma for most folks.

Of course you buy armor with the intention of confronting other citizens with it if need be. You carry a gun with the idea of confronting another citizen with it if need be. Confrontation sometimes needs to happen. Most of the folks here encourage confrontation of, say, an active shooter at a school. They want teachers and administrators to be equipped for such a confrontation, and equipped to win that confrontation.

 

[jedi]

I find that people don't like the idea of a more armed and equipped police force but clamor for police protection constantly. I don't believe there's a happy middle ground. Cops have one of the most dangerous jobs around and should be allowed to be protected against any threat. Of course, I don't understand the need for police tactical gear to be in camo colors when they work in urban environments.

You do realize that the police are not even in the top 10 of deadliest jobs, ie where you die, in the usa, right?
America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

You do realize that the police are not even in the top 10 of deadliest jobs, ie where you die, in the usa, right?
America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes

So of those top 10 deadliest jobs, how many of those workers are murdered by the "clientele" that they come into contact with? When was the last time a roofer was murdered by a shingle that didn't want to be nailed to a roof? A refuse/recyclable collector that was murdered by a piece of trash or a #1 or 2 plastic that didn't want to go to the landfill? A fisherman that was murdered by a fish that didn't want to be caught and canned? Has a fish ever used its fish girlfriend as a fish shield so it could gain more time to shoot at the fisherman with its fish AK? Has a logger ever been ambushed and shot while sitting in his logging truck by a tree that didn't want to be cut down? I can't think of a time I have ever heard of that happening, can you? Every single one of those top 10 "deadliest" jobs is deadly because of accidents, not murder by another human being.

 

[Denny347]

You do realize that the police are not even in the top 10 of deadliest jobs, ie where you die, in the usa, right?
America's 10 Deadliest Jobs - Forbes

Can we have this as a STICKY?????? I mean, this comes up so often that I think it would be useful. That list is GENERAL. What does that mean you ask? Good question. It means that OVERALL, LEO is not the deadliest. However, this is VERY locational specific. For example. Here in Indianapolis, in the last year, we've had 2 IMPD officers killed, I think 7 shot, and 30-40 that were shot at and/or exchanged gunfire with. That is one department. Some departments have never had to draw their sidearms. That is where the statistics are skewed. We are forced to draw our handguns almost on a daily basis. I've lost more co-workers than I care to remember and many times more than that injured. Modern medicine and vest technology are thankfully keeping more of us alive. Fishburn would have been another LODD if it we not for the fantastic doctors/nurses as Wishard Hospital. Let's see, hypothetical choice. You can choose to jump aboard a crabbing boat for a season where there is a high risk for accidental injury or death or I can throw you into the Brightwood/Martindale area of Indy (the most actively dangerous and deadly) where you will be asked to confront armed individuals and comes with a high risk of felonious assault/death. Nothing like trying to survive an assault by a person who is trying to kill you. I bet most would rather take their chances with mother nature than active human aggression. Your example is dumb.

 

[actaeon277]

I think tempers are flaring. Maybe everyone should take a breath.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I think tempers are flaring. Maybe everyone should take a breath.

My temper is far from flared.

 

[Thor]

Feel free to add me to your ignore list if you don't want to read what I have to say. However take a look at post #18 if you don't think there's some dancing around the tin foil hat going on. "I'm not tin foil" is the same as "I don't mean to be rude but..."

If you don't see the double standard, how many threads do we have on civilians acquiring cast off military gear? Perhaps broken down by county. How many comparisons do we have to anything a civilian is wearing to what a "soldier in Afghanistan" is wearing? Why if we're talking carrying long guns in public and someone mentions it scares some folks, that's the cost of freedom and its that sheeple's fault he's scared, but if my uniform has extra pockets and looks like BDU's, its intimidating and shouldn't be done? Complaints about the waste of tax money that used Kevlar helmets are on the market significantly cheaper to the person who acquires it than the taxpayer funded government initially paid for it? If you really don't see the "Its the person not the gear" vs the "its the gear not the person" depending on who's being discussed, I can't help you.

Again, feel free to ignore me. It's easier than actually examining what I said.

Much like nothing respectful ever follows the phrase "meaning no disrespect". SO, meaning no disrespect...

 

[jedi]

You are correct Frank that the list shows accident vs human interaction.
And in looking at straight numbers accidents kill far greater then human interaction does for those jobs, for all jobs for that matter.
I was not saying police jobs are not deadly, just pointing out that while police may die they don't die in greater number then those jobs.
The reason we hear about police deaths is because it's cause as you pointed out by someone else not some object.