Only my police officer friend has the right to take your weapon.

[dross]

If a cop feels like he/she has to disarm everybody on the grounds of their total and absolute "safety", I believe they're in the wrong job. Become an insurance agent, or open a stamp-collecting shop, something that better fits with their world view. Don't use a badge as a means of imposing their viewpoint on me, especially when it directly contravenes the Constitution of the United States.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Specialized

But they shouldn't become a fisherman, they die on the job at almost ten times the rate of cops, nor should they become a cab driver, they are murdered at four times the rate of cops.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

If it's sitting on the seat, I think I would definitely ask for it. Easier access. If it was in the holster on the guy's hip or in a glove box/center console/etc, I would have him leave it there since it would take a considerably longer time to draw from one of those places than from his seat.

At the end of the day, I'm coming home to my wife and boy. Period.

I can draw and shoot quicker from the hip than from the seat next to me, and that includes seat belted in.. I train for my pistol to be in a certain position and not fumbling around for it. Center console, yes much slower but I could grab it without telegraphing movements that you would see when your running my license plate or registration. Glove box? You must be joking, you expect me to reach into it to grab my registration.

At the end of the day, I'm coming home to my wife, son and daughter. And without my rights being violated. Period.

 

[RedCell]

I can draw and shoot quicker from the hip than from the seat next to me, and that includes seat belted in.. I train for my pistol to be in a certain position and not fumbling around for it. Center console, yes much slower but I could grab it without telegraphing movements that you would see when your running my license plate or registration. Glove box? You must be joking, you expect me to reach into it to grab my registration.

At the end of the day, I'm coming home to my wife, son and daughter. And without my rights being violated. Period.

I'm not going to argue about your abilities.

You can't get to it while the officer is staring at you. You'd look awfully silly trying not to telegraph with him standing there. If you go for it in the glove box and try and flip that thing around quick, you'd have to maneuver it around your body while he steps back to your driver-side back window and opens fire into the back of your head...

What training do you have as far as shooting and drawing? Esp. drawing while sitting, buckled into your seat? Just curious.

 

[maxmayhem]

My rdiing lawnmower is really fast so I would just make a run for it before I would lay down my arms.

 

[maxmayhem]

This is like one of those lib polls...you have to agree to answer...How about "from my cold dead hand" jk of course

 

[Que]

For all of those who feel the need to go around this mountain again, please go back and read before you honor us with all of your wisdom and knowledge. This thread wasn't about the rookie cop, but me pointing to myself, desiring help to overcome my own uncertainty, brought on by my own emotion rather than the bright red line, which the law provides. Thanks to a few good people on here who saw I was sincerely asking for help, which they provided, I am fine and have an even better understanding of myself.

Now, because we are no longer closing threads, please go ahead and form the conversation to whatever you want, especially those needing to up their post count.

Definitely! My worry was similar to how I felt about my soldiers. I would rather face the danger than have them get hurt. In this case I just didn't want to ever hear that my friend got hurt in the line of duty.

It will be my job to pray and ask God to protect him everyday as he serves his community. It will be his job to ensure he learns how to use situational awareness and trust his instincts. Also, it's his job to get some training outside of the academy, to include range time.

Everything will be fine and hopefully he will quickly learn that 99.9% of those he pulls over with guns are not his enemy.

Now, I have to go back and neg rep the guy who said turkey bacon was better than good old pork!

Great points and I receive them. This is exactly the same "non-talk" that I have with my wife concerning our son. I will be taking my friend to the range as much as possible and hopefully he will befriend some seasoned officers that believe in the rights of LTCH. I was hoping that bringing this here would help and it did. Thanks!

TTT for those jumping on the bandwagon and want to throw the "lib" label around.

 

[hvacrguy]

LTCH

A peice of paper means nothing to a persons mental stablity. They can be the citizen of the year and decide this is it and take a life it happens all the time look at the news. If I have to make somebody mad because they feel I violated their Rights then so be it. I WILL go HOME at the end of the night. If you dont like it move. I love my wife dog beer and bacon. All of us on here may have a LTCH and be stable but not everybody is. Feel free to PM complaints to me they will be answered.

 

[rhart]

GUN CONCEALED+PIEHOLE SHUT= NO PROBLEMOS

 

[Timjoebillybob]

You can't get to it while the officer is staring at you. You'd look awfully silly trying not to telegraph with him standing there. If you go for it in the glove box and try and flip that thing around quick, you'd have to maneuver it around your body while he steps back to your driver-side back window and opens fire into the back of your head...

What training do you have as far as shooting and drawing? Esp. drawing while sitting, buckled into your seat? Just curious.

While he's standing there? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not what I said was it? And this officer was very lucky that the guy had a already fired round as the next shot up. It was in his face and luckily went click instead of boom, while he was standing at the window. It wasn't until after the click he had a chance to step back and open fire into the back of the guy. I won't post the videos of the less than optimal results.
YouTube - lucky cop

Formal training? Not much, but hope to correct that soon. Informal and practice? A decent amount, I try to practice draw and target acquisition at least an hour a week, some of that time in my car. Car jackings do happen, while not probably my car it is possible. Actual shooting from a car? None, I haven't found a range that will let me pull my car up to the firing line yet. If you know of one please tell.

My rdiing lawnmower is really fast so I would just make a run for it before I would lay down my arms.

But my man lift puts me out of their reach.

 

[rhart]

A peice of paper means nothing to a persons mental stablity. They can be the citizen of the year and decide this is it and take a life it happens all the time look at the news. If I have to make somebody mad because they feel I violated their Rights then so be it. I WILL go HOME at the end of the night. If you dont like it move. I love my wife dog beer and bacon. All of us on here may have a LTCH and be stable but not everybody is. Feel free to PM complaints to me they will be answered.

Mental Stability works both ways
Quote from Science Daily:

Data showed that 23 percent of male and 25 percent of female officers reported more suicidal thoughts than the general population (13.5 percent). In a previous study, suicide rates were three times higher in police than in other municipal workers, Violanti found.

 

[patience0830]

General civility and respect

Most of us don't think about it but as a society we depend on each other to be civil and respectful all the time. The police don't expect us to await them at the egress from their homes and snipe them from 300 yards away due to a perceived slight at a traffic stop. I don't expect the cop to be a cocky jackwad every time he sees me. It works out to be a lot more pleasant than that almost every time. I have friends who are officers. And sure, I want them to go home to their families. Their job is dangerous but, mostly not because of LTCH holders. Most guys with proper training and a real knowledge of the law and respect for their fellow citizens will never have an encounter with a LTCH holder that requires dis-arming a fellow citizen. Respect flows both ways. Disrespect begets attitude.

 

[1$Chuck]

Did you ever think that there might be people out there who would create their own little pink piece of paper? If I was an officer, just because I saw a LTCH, that doesn't make it real. I can see why they are leery.

 

[ATM]

Did you ever think that there might be people out there who would create their own little pink piece of paper? If I was an officer, just because I saw a LTCH, that doesn't make it real. I can see why they are leery.

The pink piece of paper isn't the point. It's just a trivial legal requirement in this state.

The main point is that if the person let you know they are carrying, they aren't likely planning to then gun you down.

Surprise is a pretty good tactic (offensively speaking, of course).

Bad guys don't often choose to give up such an advantage.

 

[youngda9]

I believe it is a courteous and respectful act to inform the officer if you are carrying. If I was an officer I would hope that I would be informed. Having said that...I have seen sooo many posts of the cops not treating LEGALLY armed citizens in a courteous and respectful manner...having no problem violating our 2A rights when these people(vetted by state and national agencies to get their license) go out of their way to courteously and respectfully offer the information.

Therefore, I will not notify a police offider that I am carrying...I am not required to under IN law.

I know how I can expect to be treated if I offer up such information, I will not needlessly subject muself to disarmament for "officer safety", BS. I am no threat to an officer, if I was I sure as hell wouldn't tip him off that I had a firearm in the car and was thinking about using it.

 

[cosermann]

Excellent post putting the risk in perspective. I'll expand on it a bit by asking this question: How many examples of LTCH holders shooting police at traffic stops have actually occured since the 1980s? Anyone?

Still haven't heard of any examples. Can someone come up with at least ONE?

I have no problem with officer safety measures that are based in REALITY and observations of tells indicating an unstable/violent subject (a firearm by itself is not such an indicator, btw). However, history seems to demonstrate that LTCH holders represent essentially ZERO risk to police officers. They're more likely to get struck by lightning.

And what about MY safety? Do I not count for some reason? Unnecessarily handling/unloading/fiddling with firearms during traffic stops significantly ups the risk of an AD/ND (maybe by a factor of 10), and that affects the safety of everyone in the vicinity, the officer, myself, passers by, etc. What's going to happen when a LEO accidently shoots himself with a citizen's seized gun? If the practice discussed in this thread continues to be practiced routinely, I'd venture to guess it will happen eventually.

I keep my mouth shut and treat the fact of whether or not I have firearms in the vehicle as need-to-know information (it's moot since I'm not a threat), but it sounds as though the effectiveness of that practice is being dimished by some of the current officer training out there.

 

[RedCell]

While he's standing there? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not what I said was it?

The OP specifically says that the officer sees the gun on the seat next to the driver. That's why I was saying I'd ask for it and gave the specific examples that I did.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is there are definitely situations where the officer should NOT ask for the firearm because it could present more of a danger to them than having the operator leave it where it is, however, having experience "making it home" that's what I would do if I were in the officer's shoes.

I haven't found a range that will let me pull my car up to the firing line yet. If you know of one please tell.

Move to St. Joseph County outside of city lines and buy some acreage. They don't stop anybody from shooting out here!

 

[Bill of Rights]

OK, I'm presently at the end of post #80 in reading this thread and the following thoughts come to mind that I don't want to forget before I get to the end.

Que, I hope you told your friend that despite his training or personal beliefs, that the courts have upheld that presentation of a LTCH ceases all inquiry into weapons.

I certainly did!

Que, what did he say to that? Did he express that he still would knowingly and willfully follow through with what the courts have called unlawful activity?

Dross, we went there, too. I even asked him what he would do if it was a gun he was not familiar with. I was pretty hot by this time and really don't recall what he said, but I know the end result was him taking the gun.

I even told him abut reports about officers taking guns and field stripping them. He admitted that was a bit much, but said he would take the gun and unload it and give it back to the person unloaded when he was done.

Okay, I'm starting to get ticked again! However, when I think about his pregnant wife and 13-month old son, I end up regrettably agreeing with him.

As Dross pointed out, this is emotion talking. I'm not saying it's not valid; I want my friends who are LEOs to come home safely as well. That said, though, I don't want them to consider the rights of the innocent as less important than their safety. The rights of the guilty need protected as well, but in those cases, some leeway can be granted to the LEO and still be in keeping with the Constitutional precept that people shall not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.

Take deep breaths and I'll talk you through this one.

You have strong emotions concerning your friend. These are the same emotions that create anti-gunners out of women with children. They start imagining their child shot to death and then they want no guns for anyone because they can't imagine anything worse than losing their child.

You just want your friend to come home. Stop and think. He's really not any safer by doing what he's doing. It's an illusion, and the price of that illusion is punishing the very people least likely to harm him.

Emotions don't provide us with answers, they usually lead us from the best answer. Emotions should only provide the impetus to search for answers. We must use reason and principle to solve problems, emotions just get in the way.

Very well said.

Great points and I receive them. This is exactly the same "non-talk" that I have with my wife concerning our son. I will be taking my friend to the range as much as possible and hopefully he will befriend some seasoned officers that believe in the rights of LTCH. I was hoping that bringing this here would help and it did. Thanks!

His attitude is exactly why I have never advised an officer that I am armed except for the one time that I had a black powder revolver on the front seat in plain view. Officer safety is NOT a valid excuse to infringe my rights. Not at all.

I can understand that logic can be skewed when dealing with emotions---the officer is known to you, so your judgement is affected. That being said, I have friends who are patrol officers. I'd rather they do their job correctly and not embrace the BS that is "Officer Safety". So far, at least as I've been told, they've been very reasonable when interacting with persons with firearms.

As much as people tend to hate to hear it, I firmly believe that this issue should be a deciding factor in whether or not an officer is fit to work the street. If a legally-carried firearm causes that much anxiety and therefore causes an unfavorable interaction between citizen and LEO, then it IS indeed time for that officer to either find a new profession or request to be moved to a desk position.

I would agree. The officer is as much if not more at risk leaving the subject of his stop, the citizen he just took a gun away from, in a position to use a several-hundred-pound weapon with four tires on the ground against him.

If he was my FRIEND, I would only want him to take the weapon ONLY if he felt it was needed and necessary.

That little pink paper proves that person is not a criminal. A cop shouldn't even touch someone's gun unless he felt 100% that guy was capable of doing someone harm.

No. That little pink paper does not prove anything of the sort. Alone, it proves only that you have a little pink piece of paper. Once verified as valid through whatever database they connect to to do so, it proves that the person has not been discovered at that time to have had a mental condition or to have been charged with or convicted of a crime that would lead to its suspension or revocation. Playing the odds, though, the chance is far higher that the person is indeed, no threat. When you gamble, ("playing the odds") you always stand a chance of losing. The only way to guarantee that you won't lose is to never play the game. An officer taking visible weapons away from citizens as a matter of course is nothing more than an attempt to stack the deck (which if you do it while playing cards, is considered cheating. )

If you were to come to my house and I told you that I was going to hold on to your weapon for safety reasons, how would you react? Your answer should be the same as if it were a police officer. While I understand that you don't have the right to walk away during a traffic stop, as you would from my house, the fact that a person has a badge doesn't elevate him to super hero status. While I understand the need for officer safety, a lot of times it is used as a blanket because I can. Look at ATF consumer. Don't want to give me your gun? Officer safety, slap on the cuffs, disarm, and completely overlook the .380 in his back pocket.

Officer safety doesn't trump my safety. Officer safety doesn't trump my rights. My gun will always be safer in my holster than in anyone's hand.

One thing to remember. Any time you carry, you are assuming liability for that weapon as long as it is in your possession, all the way up to the moment that the officer takes possession. If that weapon were to discharge while you are cooperating for "officer safety", you don't get a pass because he asked for your gun.

I will not give my weapon (or any other property for that matter) to a police officer. If he believes he has the authority, then he can feel free to take my weapon.

Also good points. What we're coming down to, if we break it down this far, is that the rights of the people, the majority of whom are not guilty of violating anything more than the malum prohibitum restriction on forward velocity of their vehicle, are being sacrificed to purchase an illusion of temporary security. Didn't Ben Franklin say something about that?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[E5RANGER375]

While he's standing there? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not what I said was it? And this officer was very lucky that the guy had a already fired round as the next shot up. It was in his face and luckily went click instead of boom, while he was standing at the window. It wasn't until after the click he had a chance to step back and open fire into the back of the guy. I won't post the videos of the less than optimal results.
YouTube - lucky cop

Formal training? Not much, but hope to correct that soon. Informal and practice? A decent amount, I try to practice draw and target acquisition at least an hour a week, some of that time in my car. Car jackings do happen, while not probably my car it is possible. Actual shooting from a car? None, I haven't found a range that will let me pull my car up to the firing line yet. If you know of one please tell.



But my man lift puts me out of their reach.

cop looked like he handled himself well considering. the only thing I saw that could be done different is that he had the light in his weapon hand. nothing goes in gun hand.

 

[roscott]

I feel like an important aspect is being ignored. If Officer Safety is really the important issue, (from the Department's point of view,) is disarming a citizen with an LTCH really safe, from an operational standpoint?

It seems to me, that from an officer's standpoint, disarming by requesting the gun is incredibly dangerous, even stupid.

Officer: "I'm going to have to ask you to hand over your firearm."
Citizen (Bad-Guy): "Okay." Casually draws pistol, points it at the officer, and shoots him. The officer doesn't draw because he thinks the guy is simply handing over the gun.

As an LEO, wouldn't you WANT the individual to keep his gun holstered, so that if he draws for any reason, you can just shoot him? Isn't THAT officer safety?

^^^This! (Again. Nobody seemed to notice the first time, so I figured I'd give it another go. )

 

[Benny]

In that "lucky cop" video, did that guy crash due to gun shot wounds?

I'd say that officer handled himself very well, with the exception that E5 already pointed out...That's also assuming there weren't houses in the direction he emptied his magazine.