Pistol Caliber Carbine - SC & USPSA

[BillD]

It's not like other divisions. No need to change or remove belts, pistols and holsters. Shoot your pistol, when its your turn to shoot PPC, go pick up your longgun and stick a spare mag in your back pocket.
I'll bet within 6 months you'd have 40+ round 9mm mags available for the popular PPC s.
Sounds like fun to me.

 

[VERT]

Talked to a USPSA guy today that I respect. He was not very supportive of the PCC idea. I on the other hand like the idea. We agreed on several talking points though.

1) allowing multiple guns at a match is bad idea.
2) side matches after USPSA is a bad idea. At least at our club
3) some provision would need to be made when strong hand only is called for in the course

 

[Twangbanger]

Agreed, I don't think the intention is to turn it into a multi-gun match. Pick one for the day and have fun.

If it could be done with this understanding, then it's a good idea and I think it could grow the sport. Part of the reason there's no market for guns like the Marlin Camp Carbine or Ruger Police Carbine anymore, is because of ARs. Which is sort of a shame. But I cannot even count how many casual AR owners I know, who really have nowhere they can participate in any kind of organized sport because of centerfire rifle restrictions. Some of them who don't yet feel confident enough in their pistol skills to compete, might be persuadable to buy an AR upper as a way of getting into USPSA, if it would allow them to take that rifle out of the closet and get some trigger time. (Once they got into it, and saw what a blast it is, the "intimidation factor" would wear off, and I suspect they'd be back with their defensive pistols in short order).

But again, you have to keep it from being taken over by people who are just looking to maximize their range day, and aren't willing to "just" shoot PCC only. I think once you start allowing people to do both in a day, it's not about growing the sport anymore and you're mainly just accommodating existing shooters who want more trigger time at others' expense.

I think the uprange starts could be handled by having the rifle on a table. Turn around, pick up the gun and shoot. Weak hand would be a groaner for PCC shooters...but it can be done.

 

[VERT]

Up range starts are not a problem. Flag in chamber or gun in bag. Step up to line unbag and sling gun. Then go to the starting point to load and make ready. A sling for a long gun is like a holster for a pistol. A slipping rifle with chamber flag in place or unloaded and bagged is not at all unsafe.

 

[kevinsr98]

Wow, I think were making this way too complicated. I don't think we need to shut people down from trying to "maximize their range day". Makes it sound like your trying get over on someone. This is supposed to be fun.

If PCC ever does become a division, just run it like the guys at FNS do. One gun at sign up. If the match fills up, then that's what you shoot. If the match director thinks there is room he can get a count on how many want to shoot a second gun and make the call. Keep it simple.

 

[VERT]

Steel matches are a bit different then USPSA. There is no real competitive advantage to running steel multiple times. Heck you have multiple runs anyway. I used to shoot with a local "IPSC" club when I lived it the Dakotas. We had one really large bay. So we setup one stage and people could shoot one run in 4 different divisions. The Open and Limited guys started with their Production guns to get a couple run throughs. I shot my carry gun and started with Open then worked back. We got pretty good by run #4 on that single stage. See why extra guns are a bad idea?

Plus we are already at the club at 8am for setup and stay until all the participants are cleaned up and gone. It is a lot to ask to keep people there longer for side matches. Two guns per shooter on a stage means less people to score and paste while others are reloading. So nothing is being made to be too complicated, hosting a USPSA match takes effort.

 

[kevinsr98]

Nate, I understand that a steel match is different from a uspsa match. I also agree with you that if you have 20+ guys shooting two guns each would be a problem for pasting and reset.

I was just using FNS as an example. If a uspsa match gets 40 shooters but has room for 60, why not let a handful of guys shoot their PCC too. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[VERT]

Nate, I understand that a steel match is different from a uspsa match. I also agree with you that if you have 20+ guys shooting two guns each would be a problem for pasting and reset.

I was just using FNS as an example. If a uspsa match gets 40 shooters but has room for 60, why not let a handful of guys shoot their PCC too. That's all I was trying to say.

Because that is not really how a USPSA match flows. It takes a minimum number of people on a squad to reset and keep things flowing. 1 shooter, 1 RO, 1 scoring, 1 reloading. That is four people even without pasters. So 40 shooters would be 4 squads. Not really a sport where there are a set number of spots available.

If I am speaking out of turn then please correct me. I am not a USPSA member or RO. But I am intimately involved with the sport at the local club level.

 

[sporter]

Because that is not really how a USPSA match flows. It takes a minimum number of people on a squad to reset and keep things flowing. 1 shooter, 1 RO, 1 scoring, 1 reloading. That is four people even without pasters. So 40 shooters would be 4 squads. Not really a sport where there are a set number of spots available.

If I am speaking out of turn then please correct me. I am not a USPSA member or RO. But I am intimately involved with the sport at the local club level.

Nate you forgot the at least 2 or 3 shooters per squad BSing and grabassing and not helping!

 

[bwframe]

Wow, I think were making this way too complicated. I don't think we need to shut people down from trying to "maximize their range day". Makes it sound like your trying get over on someone. This is supposed to be fun.

If PCC ever does become a division, just run it like the guys at FNS do. One gun at sign up. If the match fills up, then that's what you shoot. If the match director thinks there is room he can get a count on how many want to shoot a second gun and make the call. Keep it simple.

I like the idea of PCC. I hope we can get it worked out. Shooting a handgun and a long gun truly optimises all involved in making a long trip to drag all the related stuff to a match and help with setup/tear down. Shooting twice as much in two different disciplines is huge.

I'm a fan of FNC also, but it is quite a disappointment to plan to shoot two guns only to be denied because "too many" shooters showed up. We work hard to promote this stuff and talk it up big time. There shouldn't be a penalty for being successful.

 

[romack991]

It's not like other divisions. No need to change or remove belts, pistols and holsters. Shoot your pistol, when its your turn to shoot PPC, go pick up your longgun and stick a spare mag in your back pocket.

That's no difference than shooting Production and Limited. I could go shoot my production gun (40 minor) and then throw those mags in my bag and grab two extended mags and shoot limited (40 major). No other gear changes. I'm pretty sure the rest of the squad wouldn't appreciate it.

This would be the match scenario, I stop pasting a shooter or two before my run to go through stage prep. Then after I shoot, I need to reload my mags for a shooter or two. I might paste for a shooter before I'm on deck again and prepping for my other run. Then I have to load those mags for another shooter or two. I surely wouldn't be pasting for more than a couple shooters and everyone else has to paste for me twice. Also forget about me helping out on the timer or scoring device.

That would be why I'd be against allowing multiple guns (in the same day). It's about all the extra work the rest of the squad has to do. The PCC division is pretty interesting and I'd shoot it if they make it provisional. I would image it would quickly be more popular than Lim10, Carry Optics, & Revo.

 

[BillD]

That's no difference than shooting Production and Limited. I could go shoot my production gun (40 minor) and then throw those mags in my bag and grab two extended mags and shoot limited (40 major). No other gear changes. I'm pretty sure the rest of the squad wouldn't appreciate it.

This would be the match scenario, I stop pasting a shooter or two before my run to go through stage prep. Then after I shoot, I need to reload my mags for a shooter or two. I might paste for a shooter before I'm on deck again and prepping for my other run. Then I have to load those mags for another shooter or two. I surely wouldn't be pasting for more than a couple shooters and everyone else has to paste for me twice. Also forget about me helping out on the timer or scoring device.

That would be why I'd be against allowing multiple guns (in the same day). It's about all the extra work the rest of the squad has to do. The PCC division is pretty interesting and I'd shoot it if they make it provisional. I would image it would quickly be more popular than Lim10, Carry Optics, & Revo.

You are absolutely no fun.

 

[Twangbanger]

I like the idea of PCC. I hope we can get it worked out. Shooting a handgun and a long gun truly optimises all involved in making a long trip to drag all the related stuff to a match and help with setup/tear down. Shooting twice as much in two different disciplines is huge.

I'm a fan of FNC also, but it is quite a disappointment to plan to shoot two guns only to be denied because "too many" shooters showed up. We work hard to promote this stuff and talk it up big time. There shouldn't be a penalty for being successful.

The problem with Friday Night Steel, like other types of shooting, is there _are_ time constraints. At FNS, it's 10PM Taps so the neighbors can sleep. You're disappointed when you can't shoot a second gun, but we are all affected in one way or another. For example, 2 out of the last 3 times I shot FNS, we had to eliminate an entire stage to get all competitors finished by the no-fly hour. It's frustrating to expend ammo shooting a stage and have it not count. This was pre-Newtown, 70~80 people were showing up, and everyone was infatuated with the S&W M&P 15-22 at the time. The range was getting backed up with people having to hit plates 5 or 6 times with 22lr to get them to fall. I watched one guy burn through 2 mags and begin on his 3rd to get the plate rack cleared, and he was hitting them almost every shot. Multiply that x 3 runs per stage, and it adds up. That stuff alone resulted in a stage being thrown out to save time, and nobody was even shooting a 2nd gun.

"Friday Night Rimfire" was my first lesson in getting large numbers of shooters through a course of fire within time constraints. FNS lets people run a 2nd gun when the number of competitors is lower, but on those 70~80 shooter nights, it just wasn't possible. That's exactly how many shooters a large, monthly outdoor summertime USPSA match will get. Except there, people have to go downrange and paste and score paper targets after every, single shooter. Can you imagine adding a few people on every squad shooting a second gun into a scenario like that? Especially when it's hot out and the help is getting sluggish? With a 90-minute drive each way, there's going to come a point where people say the hell with that. Which maybe is fine for some...but we better be careful what we wish for. We all want to shoot more, but the same old 30~40 shooters doubling up on guns creates a very different sport, in the long run, than having 70 or 80 people there.

If newbies show up and spend all day away from their families while other shooters are dragging out a trunkful of guns, I think we risk getting in that 30-40 shooters situation. This day in age, there's just too many other ways people can choose to spend their recreational day. Depending how shoots are run, a casual half-hour or hour trip to air-conditioned Point Blank Range, followed by brewskies at BW3, can start to look better and better to the potential new shooter.

 

[mongo404]

After the SS match I will be willing to allow the PCC into the May match but I will stick with the 1 gun per day. We have it set up so you can shoot Sat. or Sunday. There are a few that are having fun with this arrangement. I did a few times this year. And as a added bonus If you come help set up on Saturday you get to shoot for free.

Should there be a mag capacity limit??? the mags I have for my 9mm hold 32rds modified colt mags. most USPSA stages max is 32 rounds. Thoughts on this??


This will be my way.

Before anyone asks no .22s

All PCC will be Flagged and bagged until you are up on the line. Im not going to have special stands out for people to set their PCC on.

All USPSA rules will apply
Loaded start from table or low ready. If pistol is from holster then PCC it will be low ready.
Additional mags on barrels
ALL Scored minor
Open and limited division only. In other words optic or not.

 

[BillD]

IMO no restrictions on mag size.

 

[romack991]

IMO no restrictions on mag size.

I'm with Bill on this one. It's hard enough for an RO to count shots with SS to make sure they are shooting minor or major. I wouldn't bother with a limit. (See I'm not a 100% buzzkill )
I'd also vote for loading out of pouches or back pocket. Two reasons, it doesn't force a predetermined reload spot for the shooter and it doesn't make the club set up a barrel in the middle of every stage.

Sounds like this is going to be an official thing in SC next year. Here are some of the proposed rules.
Building an AR chambered in .40 SW - Rifle - Technical - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

 

[VERT]

I'm with Bill on this one. It's hard enough for an RO to count shots with SS to make sure they are shooting minor or major. I wouldn't bother with a limit. (See I'm not a 100% buzzkill )
I'd also vote for loading out of pouches or back pocket. Two reasons, it doesn't force a predetermined reload spot for the shooter and it doesn't make the club set up a barrel in the middle of every stage.

Sounds like this is going to be an official thing in SC next year. Here are some of the proposed rules.
Building an AR chambered in .40 SW - Rifle - Technical - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

The Stock/buffer tube/Sig Brace discussion in that thread is funny.

 

[Snizz1911]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8KaKo8oRuss

Looks fun to me.
Im not sure why we are debating/determining rules on the fly or talking about multiple guns. We don't typically shoot multiple guns at uspsa matches so logic would say we wouldn't start. I'm sure if uspsa makes it a provisional division they'll fill us in on a rule set.

I think it could be very popular, much more so then L10 or carry optics. At ACC the carbine matches are packed, and that's saying a lot considering they are ran under IDPA rules.

 

[sporter]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8KaKo8oRuss


talking about multiple guns. We don't typically shoot multiple guns at uspsa matches so logic would say we wouldn't start.

Don't inject that common sense thinking here!

 

[I'lltakethree]

I like the idea of not having to reload since I can get 33 rounds in my pcc. The only problem I see with this is if there are classifers where you shoot one handed. But I'm sure something could be worked out.