Rob Pincus: Sub-Compact 1911's suck

[NHT3]

I made a trip to Nighthawk a couple of years ago and asked a couple of the builders there about the 3.5" guns.. They said in their experience that the guns that short were "fincky". When they work, they work well and when they don't they (Nighthawk) have a difficult time figuring out what the problem is with them. Coming from guys that build quality 1911s 8 hours every day I would say that is valuable information. Sticking with 4" or longer is a good rule of thumb.
[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]

 

[NIFT]

Here is an excellent read for folks who prefer 1911-type pistols, the variants of which are legion!

Choosing a 1911 for Duty Use

 

[Cam]

Well hell, I guess I better just toss my Kimbers in the trash then cause Rob Pincus says they are junk.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

1. One it's a Kimber.

2. Did you see the weapon handling skills of the student? Bow and arrow'd it, fumbled with the mag, it is not likely that the student was doing something to cause the weapon to malf?

3. It's a goofy compact gun, the spring will be stronger and it will malf more. If you carry one of these goofy things, ensure that you are getting plenty of reps one handed and from your back. Heck, I've seen all kinds of self-loading pistols malf from on your back, including me when I, like a numbnuts, unlocked my wrist with a 5" 1911 and I have no excuse based on my hours.

4. Ensure that you are doing your malf drills, especially Type IIIs.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Here is an excellent read for folks who prefer 1911-type pistols, the variants of which are legion!

Choosing a 1911 for Duty Use

One would be advised to listen to Hilton Yam. He has forgotten more about the 1911 than most know.

First off, if you are truly serious about running a 1911, it needs to be a full sized 5" gun in .45 ACP.

Yes, sir, Mr. Yam, sir.

 

[koenig clone]

Ive had a para slim hawg for a couple years now. Great gun. Always fires, always cycles, very accurate. You have to learn how to shoot the smaller 1911s. If you shoot with a limp wrist you will have issues. The action is so fast your wrist will absorb the recoil needed to cycle the action.
Try it. I would trust my life to my para.

 

[88E30M50]

If you're looking for a gun that will run a 500 round training day without a hiccup, then a 3" 1911 is probably not going to do it for you. However, if you are looking for something that will work when you need it to defend you, the 3" 1911 is fine. I have an Ultra Carry that has simply worked and worked well when ever I've pulled the trigger. I cannot recall a failure with that gun. My 4" Compact is just as good. My 5" Springfield did eject the firing pin into my chest once, but has been good after a set of spring.

Saying that a 3" 1911 is crap because it did not make it through a training day is inaccurate. It's like saying the tires on your car are crap because you tried to run them at the Indy 500 and they failed due to sustained levels of stress they are not suited to. The gun is not suited for a 500 round firefight. Maybe a well cared for and maintained one used by a skilled person would be fine, but the gun is designed for defense, not combat.

I trust mine with no reservations and it provides a level of concealment that lets me take a .45 places where my full size 1911s would be called out. 500 round firefights are the place to take your rifle, not your SD pistol.

 

[wagyu52]

If you're looking for a gun that will run a 500 round training day without a hiccup, then a 3" 1911 is probably not going to do it for you. However, if you are looking for something that will work when you need it to defend you, the 3" 1911 is fine. I have an Ultra Carry that has simply worked and worked well when ever I've pulled the trigger. I cannot recall a failure with that gun. My 4" Compact is just as good. My 5" Springfield did eject the firing pin into my chest once, but has been good after a set of spring.

Saying that a 3" 1911 is crap because it did not make it through a training day is inaccurate. It's like saying the tires on your car are crap because you tried to run them at the Indy 500 and they failed due to sustained levels of stress they are not suited to. The gun is not suited for a 500 round firefight. Maybe a well cared for and maintained one used by a skilled person would be fine, but the gun is designed for defense, not combat.
I trust mine with no reservations and it provides a level of concealment that lets me take a .45 places where my full size 1911s would be called out. 500 round firefights are the place to take your rifle, not your SD pistol.

Well put. A gun is just a tool, use it for something it is not intended for and it fails, it is not the guns fault. 3" 1911 are not intended to be in a 500 rd fire fight, instead of bashing the gun, why didn't he say that this is the wrong gun to bring to this course

 

[dboz]

If you're looking for a gun that will run a 500 round training day without a hiccup, then a 3" 1911 is probably not going to do it for you. However, if you are looking for something that will work when you need it to defend you, the 3" 1911 is fine. I have an Ultra Carry that has simply worked and worked well when ever I've pulled the trigger. I cannot recall a failure with that gun. My 4" Compact is just as good. My 5" Springfield did eject the firing pin into my chest once, but has been good after a set of spring.

Saying that a 3" 1911 is crap because it did not make it through a training day is inaccurate. It's like saying the tires on your car are crap because you tried to run them at the Indy 500 and they failed due to sustained levels of stress they are not suited to. The gun is not suited for a 500 round firefight. Maybe a well cared for and maintained one used by a skilled person would be fine, but the gun is designed for defense, not combat.

I trust mine with no reservations and it provides a level of concealment that lets me take a .45 places where my full size 1911s would be called out. 500 round firefights are the place to take your rifle, not your SD pistol.

After reading through this entire thread, I am glad to hear someone say something that makes so much sense. I have never ran my Kimber Ultra Carry through a 500 round training day, but that is not what I bought it for. I have rapidly shot 3-4 magazines through it before. I have NEVER had a single failure of any kind. The gun is exactly what I am looking for in an EDC.

 

[lovemachine]

I must be different.

I want my carry gun to be able to handle ANY situation. One that will not fail when firing 5 rounds, 100 rounds, 500 rounds, 1,000 rounds.

Why?

Because I think MY life, and my families lives, is worth it.

 

[EdC]

My Ultra Carry (3") has gone 2.5k rounds and I consider it reliable enough to be my EDC.
I think if anybody has problems with theirs, they should send them to me for extensive testing.

Just curious, but have you replaced the recoil springs on that? I've got about 1500 rounds on my Ultra Raptor, and the manual recommends replacement at 1800, so I've got one sitting around waiting til I get closer. What's your experience with this? Any hiccups after 2000 rounds, etc.?

 

[sparkyfender]

Huh.
My Kimber Ultra Carry works perfectly. 3" barrel.
Each time, every time.
Kind of like the bumblebee not knowing it is too heavy to fly?

Experts are always experts until they are not.......
Respectfully, some of you guys, and Mr. Pincus, are wrong.

I know other 3" 1911 owners that have zero problems with their weapons as well. A bad gun out of the box is ALWAYS a possibility.......... Even with a 5" 1911.

Roll the bones..........

 

[Wild Deuce]

I think some are missing the point.

It's not about the gun being able to handle a 500 round training day or needing a rifle instead. My interpretation of Rob's point is that during a 500 round training day, the deficiencies of a particular platform (in this case ... the sub-four inch 1911 in .45 ACP) will be revealed. It doesn't matter if it happens at round 499 or round 25. It's about the training being conducted.

Those that claim 1K, 3k, or 5k strings of problem-free fire with their 3" guns need to honestly assess the training that was being done. Were all of those problem free rounds at the shooting bench? Were any of them from an awkward position? offhand? off balance? crouching? on the ground? at speed? full power defensive ammo? etc.

If defending your particular brand/model is more important than honsetly testing yourself or your equipment, then, please, by all means tune out Mr. Pincus and soldier on. Otherwise, consider what he has to say for your benefit.

*Hope nobody get butthurt over what I said. I'm not advocating for or against any platform. I'm just advocating an honset assessment of what you carry ... and what you believe to be true.

@ Melensdad: Comments about this video from another gun guy, support the observation that Detonics has mastered the short barrel 1911.

 

[sparkyfender]

Thanks! Well crafted posting there.
I have no particular brand or model loyalty, but yes, based on what I own and what works and works well, I will tune Mr. Pincus out and soldier on.........

Regards!

 

[melensdad]

@ Melensdad: Comments about this video from another gun guy, support the observation that Detonics has mastered the short barrel 1911.

For the record I was not trying to tout the brand that I happen to collect but rather to suggest that Mr Pincus has a very valid point.

The fact is that MOST people train 20, 50 or 100 rounds at a time, usually in nice weather outdoors, or at a climate controlled indoor range, usually while standing on a line facing a static paper target, usually in a Weaver or isosceles stance . . . Now take all that 'ideal' training and mix in various guns that are not perfected for non-ideal conditions and that is why there are failures. Honestly the 3" 1911 is not perfected for non-ideal conditions.

On the other hand, Mr Pincus trains very much in a combat style and combat conditions and most of us will never pull a gun in anger, fewer of us will fire, fewer still will fire multiple shots, fewer yet will ever run a magazine, and statistically something very close to zero of us will be exposed to combat conditions in our civilian lives.

Still, I'd prefer to not carry a 3" 1911 when there are 1911s of very similar sizes that are known to be reliable. But yes, I do own some 3" 1911s that I would trust my life to if I had to, but I'd prefer a different gun.

 

[JetGirl]

Just curious, but have you replaced the recoil springs on that? I've got about 1500 rounds on my Ultra Raptor, and the manual recommends replacement at 1800, so I've got one sitting around waiting til I get closer. What's your experience with this? Any hiccups after 2000 rounds, etc.?

Nerp. I, too, have extras...but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. When it finally lets me know there's a problem, I'll deal with it.

Those that claim 1K, 3k, or 5k strings of problem-free fire with their 3" guns need to honestly assess the training that was being done.

Were any of them from an awkward position? offhand? off balance? crouching? on the ground?

And prone, and supine, and from a vehicle, etc..

If defending your particular brand/model is more important than honsetly testing yourself or your equipment

It's not a brand/model thing... I have economy (entry level) ones up through Sig, Springfield, and Kimber. I've just never experience the problems I see mentioned here. If I'm just lucky, then "yay, me". If at some point something happens...I'll deal.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

For those that carry Officer Models, what classes have you been through and did you have any problems?

 

[rustygunner]

I wouldn't own a 1911-type pistol smaller than Commander sized. If yours works fine, great, but in general when you get barrel lengths much shorter things tend to not work correctly. A 3" barrel is exceeding the limitations of the 1911's design. Not saying it can't work reliably, but most of the sub-compact 1911's on the market do not function reliably enough to trust with my life. If I'm carrying sub-compact, It's not a 1911-type pistol.

 

[rbrthenderson]

I want a gun that's going to run no matter what. Once a gun has failed on me at any point I don't consider it fit for carry. I have several guns that have gone several thousand rounds without a single malfunction. Fired from every position imaginable with both hands. Slide racked off of boots, clothing and other objects. Dirt and sand getting into every crevice and crack and they're still running. I still practice malfunction drills every time I train and I would never stop practicing them.

Guns are tools. They should be able to run and keep running. I don't want to have a limit on how many rounds I can fire before I perform maintenance on the gun. I definitely don't want a gun that won't even make it through 1 defensive pistol class.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I have had a few sub-compact 1911's that have malfunctioned. Some of those had work done to them, and ran much better - some of them never made me happy.

That being said, I have also had a few that ran without issue.

With few exceptions - when it comes to 1911's - as the slide size is decreased, the chance of malfunction is increased.

A sub-compact 1911 should not be expected to perform like a full size - but if you cannot get a few hundred rounds through it without a malfunction, you need to talk to your gunsmith - because something is wrong with it.

I still prefer the full sized 1911 models... but I am confident that every sub-compact in my rotation will make it through the limited ammunition I carry on me without a high chance of malfunction.

I may not feel as confident about a large quantity of rounds without a cleaning or spring - but if I am able to make it to a cache of ammunition then I would likely be holding a long arm.

The possibility of malfunction is why I carry a back up gun... even full sized 1911's, glocks, sigs, and XD's malfunction.