Rob Pincus: Sub-Compact 1911's suck

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  • 88E30M50

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    I'd rather have a gun on me that will give me 100 rounds of trouble free use than one that can do 500 rounds easy, but was too big to conceal and was left at home when I needed it. If you are the type of person that can deep conceal a full size 1911, then I envy you that. I cannot. If I need to go somewhere that I need deep concealment, my choices are a .380, small 9 or snubnose .45. I'll go with the .45.

    If I find myself heading into a situation that may require extended fire without the benefit of a cleaning (don't know what that might be for a civilian), I'll take a full size 1911. When I go where concealment is not that important, I'll take either a CZ 75 or mid size 1911 (4"). But, when concealment is paramount and I want something in .45, the Ultra Carry works.

    Too many folks are thinking in a single dimension. To say that a gun that has trouble getting through a 500 round day of abuse, yet does 100 rounds a a time without trouble, is a piece of junk, is one dimensional thought. It's like saying a Mosin Nagant is a useless rifle because it sucks when clearing room to room. Or that an AK is useless because it cannot take out a 1500 yard target.

    Different weapon systems are designed for different purposes. A 3" 1911 is not a combat handgun that will run 500 flawless rounds without maintenance of some sort. It's not designed to be. It is a compromise that allows a person to carry a good size caliber in an easily concealed package, but that comes at the price of high volume use. I find it interesting that a large number of people don't consider carrying a spare mag because the average gun fight is over in 3 to 5 rounds, yet thinks a gun is crap if it cannot run 500 rounds without a hiccup.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a 3" 1911 is no different than a 5" 1911 when you run 500 rounds through them. But, my experience has been that in 100 round outings, my 3" 1911 has performed just as well as any of my full size 1911s, and better than some. It's not a matter of brand loyalty either. My RIA works just as well and is a favored gun depending on the situation. Folks need to stop trying to find the holy grail of firearms and accept that almost every weapon is a compromise of sorts. Match the tool to the need and you'll be better off in the long run.
     

    Fordtough25

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    I'd rather have a gun on me that will give me 100 rounds of trouble free use than one that can do 500 rounds easy, but was too big to conceal and was left at home when I needed it. If you are the type of person that can deep conceal a full size 1911, then I envy you that. I cannot. If I need to go somewhere that I need deep concealment, my choices are a .380, small 9 or snubnose .45. I'll go with the .45.

    If I find myself heading into a situation that may require extended fire without the benefit of a cleaning (don't know what that might be for a civilian), I'll take a full size 1911. When I go where concealment is not that important, I'll take either a CZ 75 or mid size 1911 (4"). But, when concealment is paramount and I want something in .45, the Ultra Carry works.

    Too many folks are thinking in a single dimension. To say that a gun that has trouble getting through a 500 round day of abuse, yet does 100 rounds a a time without trouble, is a piece of junk, is one dimensional thought. It's like saying a Mosin Nagant is a useless rifle because it sucks when clearing room to room. Or that an AK is useless because it cannot take out a 1500 yard target.

    Different weapon systems are designed for different purposes. A 3" 1911 is not a combat handgun that will run 500 flawless rounds without maintenance of some sort. It's not designed to be. It is a compromise that allows a person to carry a good size caliber in an easily concealed package, but that comes at the price of high volume use. I find it interesting that a large number of people don't consider carrying a spare mag because the average gun fight is over in 3 to 5 rounds, yet thinks a gun is crap if it cannot run 500 rounds without a hiccup.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a 3" 1911 is no different than a 5" 1911 when you run 500 rounds through them. But, my experience has been that in 100 round outings, my 3" 1911 has performed just as well as any of my full size 1911s, and better than some. It's not a matter of brand loyalty either. My RIA works just as well and is a favored gun depending on the situation. Folks need to stop trying to find the holy grail of firearms and accept that almost every weapon is a compromise of sorts. Match the tool to the need and you'll be better off in the long run.

    :yesway: Good point!
     

    Wild Deuce

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    The OP's original point (and the video's) can be better understood if people stop thinking in terms of round count. It's not about a dirty or clean gun.
     

    bobzilla

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    I ran over 2k rounds through my 1991A1 Compact before trading it for a fullsize. It was the 3.5" bbl and was absolutely flawless for years. But I always used good mags (3 original Colt mags and a good aftermarket 7-rd'er). It would feed flat nosed hollow points, ball, wadcutters.... whatever you could stuff in the mag. Loved it.

    With that said... I now prefer my 5" fullsize. It's not much larger or harder to carry, it holds 9 rds and is accurate out farther than the Colt was.
     

    Rob Pincus

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    Match the tool to the need and you'll be better off in the long run.

    True. That was my point... If personal defense is the need, 1911's (ESPECIALLY Tiny Ones) aren't the tool.

    Thousands of students, thousands of guns... of the guns that get brought to 2 day defensive shooting courses (1 Sigma in the last 10 years, Zero Lorcins, etc., etc....) 1911's are the weakest in regard to reliability and the most prone to failure because of operator error (trying to shoot with the safety on... yes, including the "experienced" shooters).

    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:
     

    bobzilla

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    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:

    REally? Sorry... you just lost all respect I might have had right there.
     

    JetGirl

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    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:

    Hahaha!! Oh, you little pot-stirrer, you!
    P.S.
    I'd sooo rock the classic every day... but then, I live in a town where that's pretty common. ;)
     

    KG1

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    Hahaha!! Oh, you little pot-stirrer, you!
    P.S.
    I'd sooo rock the classic every day... but then, I live in a town where that's pretty common. ;)
    You've gotta get with the program JG...You're falling behind. Rocking the classic and carrying those 1911's.

    Do you have running water or cable tv yet? ;) :D
     

    iChokePeople

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    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:

    funny-dog-pictures-laughing-with-your-best-friend-priceless.jpg
     

    ghitch75

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    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:

    i'll stick with my ol' metal jalopies.....they get me there and back:patriot:
     

    wagyu52

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    True. That was my point... If personal defense is the need, 1911's (ESPECIALLY Tiny Ones) aren't the tool.

    Thousands of students, thousands of guns... of the guns that get brought to 2 day defensive shooting courses (1 Sigma in the last 10 years, Zero Lorcins, etc., etc....) 1911's are the weakest in regard to reliability and the most prone to failure because of operator error (trying to shoot with the safety on... yes, including the "experienced" shooters).

    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:

    Duh?..?.. It's a 101 year old classic! :patriot:
     

    RBrianHarless

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    I want a gun that's going to run no matter what. Once a gun has failed on me at any point I don't consider it fit for carry. I have several guns that have gone several thousand rounds without a single malfunction. Fired from every position imaginable with both hands. Slide racked off of boots, clothing and other objects. Dirt and sand getting into every crevice and crack and they're still running. I still practice malfunction drills every time I train and I would never stop practicing them.

    Guns are tools. They should be able to run and keep running. I don't want to have a limit on how many rounds I can fire before I perform maintenance on the gun. I definitely don't want a gun that won't even make it through 1 defensive pistol class.

    :yesway: I absolutely agree. Once I have a failure it is gone.

    Dependability of you firearm is a must. Having attended Combat Focus Shooting with Rob in 2009, I saw how a Kimber and a Smith and Wesson M&P had issues on the course of fire. I used a Glock 22RFT. Big mistake on my part cause my had was raw and blistered after the first day. Changed out my lower with my Glock 24.

    To each their own on the choice of platform. Just hope it works for you when you really need it. I know my Glock won't let me down.
     

    88E30M50

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    Carrying a 1911, is quite like trying to use a 50 year old classic restored car as a daily driver to get your kids to school, wife home with the groceries and you to/from work. Could you do it? Maybe... but WHY? :rolleyes:

    Good analogy. Why use a 50 year old car? Simple reliability and maintainability when times get tough. Today's wonder-cars are great... while they are working. But, when they stop, they are tough to figure out without a lot of tooling and equipment. A 1911 is similar to an old car. There is nothing in the gun that cannot be removed, cleaned, inspected and replaced by an average user.

    If we enter a period of crisis in this country, and the resources to have others fix our stuff for us goes away, simplicity will help us a whole lot. I drive a car with variable cams, a throttle that's controlled by varying the valve lift and an engine block made of magnesium with aluminum liners. In a shtf timeframe, that car will be worthless once something goes wrong. I'll be back in my 69 Fiat due to its simplicity. Same for my 1911s. Simple and solid make more sense in the long run to me.

    NIFT posted Hilton Yam's article back on page two of this thread. The very first paragraph makes a clear distinction between a duty weapon and a CCW weapon. They are different tools and have different operating environments. I'm in full agreement that if a weapon, any weapon cannot complete 100 rounds starting when cleaned and lubricated, it should not be trusted. That's how CCW weapons are carried.
     
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