Rule Number One: All Guns are always loaded

[Kirk Freeman]

If it's unloaded, it's only a misdemeanor.

Still a crime with adverse consequences to your LTCH.

 

[crispy]

Total straw man.
Both shotguns are broken open, fingers are nowhere near the trigger guard, let alone the trigger.
There are two layers of safety that make it impossible for either shotgun to fire right there, and they're not really pointing them at each other.
Get back with me when you can find a photo of either guy with the action closed and with it pointed at someone.
I'll wait.

What part of ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded don't you get? Jeff Cooper does not allow any weakening of his rule remember...

You're making my point though. These are guns that are obviously not loaded or capable of firing but they are pointed in an unsafe direction (not at each other, but at the audience.)

Are any exceptions allowed? If this exception is allowed, why?

Here's another. This shooter has finished shooting and has turned around to face the crowd.

 

[SteveM4A1]

Wow, so I guess all guns aren't always loaded?

 

[crispy]

Wow, so I guess all guns aren't always loaded?

That's what I'm ASKING.

The "No Exceptions" crowd, of which there are many. Should have a major problem with the above.

Of course, I don't know how the "No Exceptions" crowd ever walks into a gun store, what with all those loaded guns pointed at their legs...

 

[ATM]

Except that ATM and you are being pedantic in the opposite direction from what has been learned over centuries of experience.

I suppose those inexperienced buffoons at the NRA are just being pedantic, right?

If you're treating a gun at all times as loaded, you will instinctively not point it at someone else or otherwise point it in an unsafe direction, or put your finger on the trigger.

I do hope you weren't being serious here. Counting on peoples' instincts rather than defining specific instructive steps to handle guns safely? Really?

The other rules are only explanatory and additive to the first.

They were added because the first was never a specific instructive step, people continued to handle guns unsafely and the death toll kept climbing.

Give me one example of someone accidentally shot with a gun that was consistently treated at all times as loaded.
I'll wait.

Everyone who shot themselves with their own loaded gun while holstering or unholstering, everyone who shot themselves or someone else with the gun they were shooting when they got stung by a bee, caught some hot brass, etc. Everyone who had drawn their loaded gun on a person and managed to sneeze, trip, etc. and negligently discharge without meaning to.

There are countless examples of known loaded guns being handled negligently (in violation of the specific, instructive rules of safe gun handling).

Let it go - it failed. Don't teach people to handle guns like they're loaded, teach them how we handle guns safely.

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

Everyone who shot themselves with their own loaded gun while holstering or unholstering, everyone who shot themselves or someone else with the gun they were shooting when they got stung by a bee, caught some hot brass, etc. Everyone who had drawn their loaded gun on a person and managed to sneeze, trip, etc. and negligently discharge without meaning to.

There are countless examples of known loaded guns being handled negligently (in violation of the specific, instructive rules of safe gun handling).

Let it go - it failed. Don't teach people to handle guns like they're loaded, teach them how we handle guns safely.

Ironically, there are FOUR rules to the mindset. Every example you've given violated one of the FOUR rules.

Taking this back to the Origin of the thread, how do you function check a used pistol in a WalMart parking lot during a FTF transaction and strictly adhere to the NRA 3 rules? Looks like we all have to go to the range, rent a lane and then buy our handguns from one another so that we do not violate the "Golden Rule" of safe firearm handling. Perhaps there is some other way to dry fire a pistol in public to check function that I'm unaware of?


" I absolutely agree, keeping guns pointed in a safe direction is the golden rule and following it prevents tragedies.

 

[ATM]

Ironically, there are FOUR rules to the mindset. Every example you've given violated one of the FOUR rules. .

It's not ironic at all, Cooper's first "rule" was his only rule until it proved disastrously ineffective. The specific, instructive rules of safe gun handling were still very much needed.

My only question is why he didn't discard the failed mantra. Why keep it around after it's been replaced? Why perpetuate the notion that loaded guns should be handled differently than unloaded guns?

Taking this back to the Origin of the thread, how do you function check a used pistol in a WalMart parking lot during a FTF transaction and strictly adhere to the NRA 3 rules? Looks like we all have to go to the range, rent a lane and then buy our handguns from one another so that we do not violate the "Golden Rule" of safe firearm handling. Perhaps there is some other way to dry fire a pistol in public to check function that I'm unaware of?

I ensure that the gun is unloaded and maintain the muzzle in a safe direction (up, down, depending on terrain and surroundings, toward something I'm willing to destroy if an unintended discharge occurs).

Once I make the decision to dry fire, I place my finger on the trigger and pull it.

No gun handling rule violated, no need to journey to a firing range, no tragedy. Am I missing something in your question?

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

It's not ironic at all, Cooper's first "rule" was his only rule until it proved disastrously ineffective. The specific, instructive rules of safe gun handling were still very much needed.

My only question is why he didn't discard the failed mantra. Why keep it around after it's been replaced? Why perpetuate the notion that loaded guns should be handled differently than unloaded guns?




I ensure that the gun is unloaded and maintain the muzzle in a safe direction (up, down, depending on terrain and surroundings, toward something I'm willing to destroy if an unintended discharge occurs).

Once I make the decision to dry fire, I place my finger on the trigger and pull it.

No gun handling rule violated, no need to journey to a firing range, no tragedy. Am I missing something in your question?

Your method violates all 3 NRA rules.

ALWAYS keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. There is no such thing in a Walmart Parking lot, not the ground, not the sky, not the horizon

ALWAYS Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. I'm not going to shoot, I'm dry firing, but the rule says ALWAYS, so no dry firing, by your logic.

ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready for use. How would I know if the gun is unloaded? It's not mine yet.

 

[JettaKnight]

Wow, so I guess all guns aren't always loaded?

Shocked.


At least someone gets it.

 

[JettaKnight]

Give me one example of someone accidentally shot with a gun that was consistently treated at all times as loaded.
I'll wait.

Not going to get me off task here.


Your point, I infer, is that simply having a rule, "treat all guns as loaded" is enough. I say nay, nay.

Because, what does that mean to treat it as loaded? You and I know, but Suzy Sixgun that just bought a Judge to protect herself does not know. She may infer from your rule that not pulling the trigger is safe enough.

Pedantic rules that avoid all notions about being loaded alleviate the ambiguity and don't provide any excuses or wiggle room.

 

[2A_Tom]

"He even told me it wasn't loaded after he shot me."

Nought sed.

 

[ATM]

Your method violates all 3 NRA rules.

ALWAYS keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. There is no such thing in a Walmart Parking lot, not the ground, not the sky, not the horizon

ALWAYS Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. I'm not going to shoot, I'm dry firing, but the rule says ALWAYS, so no dry firing, by your logic.

ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready for use. How would I know if the gun is unloaded? It's not mine yet.

If you can't find safe directions to point a gun outside of a firing range, you should not handle a gun outside of a firing range. I can and do. No violation.

If you don't consider dry shooting to be the same as dry firing, unloaded trigger manipulation or any other terms to describe manipulating the trigger without intending to ignite and send a projectile out of the muzzle, then you should only do so at a firing range. I consider them the same and do this regularly. No rule violation.

It doesn't have to belong to you to safely unload it. I have unloaded guns that do not belong to me. No rule violation.

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

If you can't find safe directions to point a gun outside of a firing range, you should not handle a gun outside of a firing range. I can and do. No violation.

If you don't consider dry shooting to be the same as dry firing, unloaded trigger manipulation or any other terms to describe manipulating the trigger without intending to ignite and send a projectile out of the muzzle, then you should only do so at a firing range. I consider them the same and do this regularly. No rule violation.

It doesn't have to belong to you to safely unload it. I have unloaded guns that do not belong to me. No rule violation.

Nope, no safe place to point my pistol in a heavily populated area/parking lot. Rule violation 1

What part of ALWAYS keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to SHOOT do we not understand? Explain how you dry fire without touching the trigger

Rule violation 2

Where in the 3 rules does it say to Unload a firearm that I do not own, again, how can I keep something unloaded that is not mine. I can't Keep the million dollars I do not have.

Let's just stick to the rules here, we need to be specific.

 

[ATM]

Not going to get me off task here.


Your point, I infer, is that simply having a rule, "treat all guns as loaded" is enough. I say nay, nay.

Because, what does that mean to treat it as loaded? You and I know, but Suzy Sixgun that just bought a Judge to protect herself does not know. She may infer from your rule that not pulling the trigger is safe enough.

Pedantic rules that avoid all notions about being loaded alleviate the ambiguity and don't provide any excuses or wiggle room.

Exactly.

Imagine the safety briefing at the beginning of a class telling the students that all guns are always loaded so treat them like they're loaded ...before half of them even know how to load or unload the gun they brought with them.

Don't worry, we'll cover loading/unloading later, just go grab those guns and bring them safely to the firing line for now. You know, like they're loaded.



How 'bout no.

 

[SubicWarrior1988]

Not going to get me off task here.


Your point, I infer, is that simply having a rule, "treat all guns as loaded" is enough. I say nay, nay.

Because, what does that mean to treat it as loaded? You and I know, but Suzy Sixgun that just bought a Judge to protect herself does not know. She may infer from your rule that not pulling the trigger is safe enough.

Pedantic rules that avoid all notions about being loaded alleviate the ambiguity and don't provide any excuses or wiggle room.

So you cannot provide one single example of someone shooting themselves or others while following the 4 rules?? I'm shocked!

 

[ol' Huff]

One thing I've never seen commented on is the idea that Cooper's first rule is a metaphor a logical fallacy and that effect on curriculum theory. ATM frequently comments that it is not a real rule, with sets of actions you can follow or break. He often comments that it can be proven false, which it can be. We can prove to ourselves and others that a firearm is unloaded.

That said, what affect does it have on a class of people (in particular very new people) to suggest as a primary rule a phrase that isn't really a functional rule, is metaphorical in nature and requires some previous subject matter knowledge to comprehend, and can be proven false through relatively simple manipulation? You actually end up opening with an idea that you then prove false when you teach them how to clear and arm. That doesn't really build trust capital with students.

I I studied curriculum theory in grad school and have tried to find a similar example and cannot. No one that I found in the professional teaching field leads with such parameters (the closest I could find was an Econ curriculum that started with the "invisible hand", which is a metaphor, and worked backwards to Adam Smith. I will admit, though, that the lesson plan was somewhat confusing and seemed difficult to implement AND it wasn't a beginner class, it was a 300 level class on modern market forces.

So it's always confused me as to how instructors or gun folk in general justify leading with a metaphor that can be proven false that requires extensive explanation to understand. why? Tradition? Reverence for Cooper? Is that efficient or helpful? I've seen several people suggest ATMs arguments are semantic or pedantic. Well he isn't pedantic. He might be annoying but it's not a small detail to a new class. Clear communication is important. If it is semantic it's certainly not negatively so. Words need to mean things to people. Firearm safety needs to be clearly communicated. If anything, ATMs argument proves the need for a semantic evaluation of Coopers rule. From the vantage point of teaching new shooters, I have yet to see someone sufficiently debunk ATMs position.

 

[ATM]

Nope, no safe place to point my pistol in a heavily populated area/parking lot. Rule violation 1

You don't have to agree with what I consider a safe direction, you may restrict your options much further than I do. We are each responsible for anything we send that direction. You can drive around with a bucket of sand in your car to aim at if it makes you more comfortable to do so.

What part of ALWAYS keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to SHOOT do we not understand? Explain how you dry fire without touching the trigger

Rule violation 2

Shoot, fire, pull the trigger, these are synonyms in this context. You can do them with or without a cartridge in the gun. You can do it with a dummy or proving cartridge if you like. If I have it pointed in a safe direction, I am actually ready for it to SHOOT, I've simply taken steps to prevent it sending a bullet out of the muzzle.
Ready to shoot obviously means something more than ready to shoot to you.

Where in the 3 rules does it say to Unload a firearm that I do not own, again, how can I keep something unloaded that is not mine. I can't Keep the million dollars I do not have.

Let's just stick to the rules here, we need to be specific.

Since these are rules of safe gun handling, I think we can make the leap to assume that it will apply to the gun we are handling regardless of ownership.

If you are handling my million dollars, please handle it responsibly. No, you don't necessarily get to keep it, but while it is in your possession, please try to keep it away from fire and the Clinton Foundation. Thanks.

 

[JettaKnight]

So you cannot provide one single example of someone shooting themselves or others while following the 4 rules?? I'm shocked!

ATM provided numerous examples. Add to that all the people that throw a pistol into a purse or or pocket with no holster.


Let's reframe this: How many people who profess to follow the 4 rules shoot themselves or others, then follow up with "I thought it was unloaded". Why is that important? You see, the inclusion of Rule #1 sets up a hypothesis (all guns are always loaded) that is easily proven false. Once that rule is busted, then it's just a chunk of metal (or plastic) and you can do with it what you want. This view has been expressed over and over on INGO. (I won't find all the examples, but Kirk will back me up on this)

To put it another way, you can say All Guns Are Always Loaded, but in your mind you know that's a lie. And by preceding specific, directive rules with a lie, you've just gone and diluted them to the point where people choose to ignore them when they handle a known unloaded gun.

ATM and I hold to the view that it's 'state of loadedness' is moot. Handle it properly always regardless.

 

[ATM]

So you cannot provide one single example of someone shooting themselves or others while following the 4 rules?? I'm shocked!

That's not what was asked.

Rules 2 and 3 will prevent tragedies all day long without Cooper's old rule #1.

 

[JettaKnight]

Nope, no safe place to point my pistol in a heavily populated area/parking lot. Rule violation 1

What part of ALWAYS keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to SHOOT do we not understand? Explain how you dry fire without touching the trigger

Rule violation 2

Where in the 3 rules does it say to Unload a firearm that I do not own, again, how can I keep something unloaded that is not mine. I can't Keep the million dollars I do not have.

Let's just stick to the rules here, we need to be specific.

So, you're claiming that your actions (dry firing in the parking lot) violated all 3 NRA rules.

Could you please explain how did not violate multiple Jeff Cooper rules?