Should people feel shame for the deeds of their ancestors?

[jamil]

Collective and inherited guilt are for those who lack critical thinking skills and/or don't want to live as a free people.

Wow. You just said in a few words what I've been trying to say in easily more than a thousand.

 

[jamil]

That's just dumb! We learn and take corrective action. We should also not take credit for the success of those who preceded us. Now, where is that turkey bacon?

This is what I think.

 

[Libertarian01]

The irony is to look at the reverse: Should we be PROUD of what our ancestors did? There are many who claim that shame is inappropriate, and I do not necessarily disagree. Yet, should we be PROUD of our ancestors service in WWI, WWII, following manifest destiny, etc?

I think there are many who would claim to be proud of being born in America and what our grandparents and farther ancestors did and accomplished. Why is that?

Just a thought...

Doug

 

[IndyDave1776]

That's just dumb! We learn and take corrective action. We should also not take credit for the success of those who preceded us. Now, where is that turkey bacon?

Well said. I would, however, feel compelled to point out that in general practice assigning blame for this reason is exponentially more popular than giving credit for anything good. My guess is that the blame game is more profitable for the usual suspects.

 

[jamil]

That's just dumb! We learn and take corrective action. We should also not take credit for the success of those who preceded us. Now, where is that turkey bacon?

Oh, one more thing. Have you tried the soy bacon? It's not all that bad once you get past the cardboard texture.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The irony is to look at the reverse: Should we be PROUD of what our ancestors did? There are many who claim that shame is inappropriate, and I do not necessarily disagree. Yet, should we be PROUD of our ancestors service in WWI, WWII, following manifest destiny, etc?

I think there are many who would claim to be proud of being born in America and what our grandparents and farther ancestors did and accomplished. Why is that?

Just a thought...

Doug

I would say that you have asked two questions for the price of one:

Should I feel superior because of the meritorious deeds of my ancestors? No

Should I feel respect and appreciation for the meritorious deeds of my ancestors and feel that what I inherited from them is in fact rightfully mine and not revocable subject to the whim of assorted examples of those domestic enemies about whom our founders warned us? Absolutely!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Oh, one more thing. Have you tried the soy bacon? It's not all that bad once you get past the cardboard texture.

This sounds like the remark the doctor performing my grandfather's autopsy made to my mom (who is a nurse, therefore the candor). He basically said that grandpa was in great condition aside from being dead.

 

[halfmileharry]

I'm not responsible for my father, grandfather, or great-grandfather's choices.
We have evolved quite well as a family as well as human beings.
Then again, my caveman ancestors shamed me well.

 

[Que]

Well said. I would, however, feel compelled to point out that in general practice assigning blame for this reason is exponentially more popular than giving credit for anything good. My guess is that the blame game is more profitable for the usual suspects.

I agree but to Libertarian's point, many use the pride game as a tool to harm, insult, or get one-up on others. The game is played by all three sides by the usual suspects.

 

[Que]

Oh, one more thing. Have you tried the soy bacon? It's not all that bad once you get past the cardboard texture.

I saw "past", but all I imagined was "paste"!

 

[miguel]

The irony is to look at the reverse: Should we be PROUD of what our ancestors did? There are many who claim that shame is inappropriate, and I do not necessarily disagree. Yet, should we be PROUD of our ancestors service in WWI, WWII, following manifest destiny, etc?

I think there are many who would claim to be proud of being born in America and what our grandparents and farther ancestors did and accomplished. Why is that?

Just a thought...

Doug

Fair point.

I support recognition of what those who have proceeded me did. Some will be foolish, some will be commendable. I can recognize a foolhardy act and not cry myself to sleep over it. I didn't do it. I don't know why Ancestor X did it. I can't ask him why he did it. It is done. So be it.

If he did something good, I can't claim credit for it. It may be possible to benefit from it (found someone's $10K watch, returned it to owner who gave him a $1K reward, he left me half of it in a bank account for being a favorite grandson...) but that will be less common than the "honor" of claiming association with it or using it as a teaching moment for the younger members of the family to "do the right thing".

 

[Libertarian01]

I would say that you have asked two questions for the price of one:

Should I feel superior because of the meritorious deeds of my ancestors? No

Should I feel respect and appreciation for the meritorious deeds of my ancestors and feel that what I inherited from them is in fact rightfully mine and not revocable subject to the whim of assorted examples of those domestic enemies about whom our founders warned us? Absolutely!

Note that I am NOT malicious with this statement, but I think you are being a hypocrite while trying to avoid such. You are attempting to justify a positive feeling about the good deeds of people over whom we had no control but avoiding feeling anything negative about the bad deeds they may have also done.

I believe that we shouldn't feel anything at all, yet we do.

Perhaps this is simply part of the human condition, our tribal instincts / pack loyalty / herd mentality of our hard wiring. Or perhaps it is simply our desire to avoid feeling bad about things and wanting to feel good? I don't know. I do believe that if we feel anything positive about our country / culture / heritage then it is hypocritical to say that we shouldn't feel anything negative as well.

Perhaps it is an emotional defense to avoid feeling bad (ie. shame) about a group of people for whom we have always been taught to feel pride (ie. founding fathers, former solders, etc).

I think the OP's original question has much deeper answers than a simple yes / no / bacon response.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Kutnupe14]

Note that I am NOT malicious with this statement, but I think you are being a hypocrite while trying to avoid such. You are attempting to justify a positive feeling about the good deeds of people over whom we had no control but avoiding feeling anything negative about the bad deeds they may have also done.

I believe that we shouldn't feel anything at all, yet we do.

Perhaps this is simply part of the human condition, our tribal instincts / pack loyalty / herd mentality of our hard wiring. Or perhaps it is simply our desire to avoid feeling bad about things and wanting to feel good? I don't know. I do believe that if we feel anything positive about our country / culture / heritage then it is hypocritical to say that we shouldn't feel anything negative as well.

Perhaps it is an emotional defense to avoid feeling bad (ie. shame) about a group of people for whom we have always been taught to feel pride (ie. founding fathers, former solders, etc).

I think the OP's original question has much deeper answers than a simple yes / no / bacon response.

Regards,

Doug

That's my opinion too. It's a bit too vague.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Note that I am NOT malicious with this statement, but I think you are being a hypocrite while trying to avoid such. You are attempting to justify a positive feeling about the good deeds of people over whom we had no control but avoiding feeling anything negative about the bad deeds they may have also done.

I believe that we shouldn't feel anything at all, yet we do.

Perhaps this is simply part of the human condition, our tribal instincts / pack loyalty / herd mentality of our hard wiring. Or perhaps it is simply our desire to avoid feeling bad about things and wanting to feel good? I don't know. I do believe that if we feel anything positive about our country / culture / heritage then it is hypocritical to say that we shouldn't feel anything negative as well.

Perhaps it is an emotional defense to avoid feeling bad (ie. shame) about a group of people for whom we have always been taught to feel pride (ie. founding fathers, former solders, etc).

I think the OP's original question has much deeper answers than a simple yes / no / bacon response.

Regards,

Doug

I would have to disagree. Perhaps I failed to adequately communicate my point. I see no hypocrisy in appreciating the good done by those who came before us without picking up stones and bricks over some deeds which would not be considered so good. First, many of those deeds were not considered wrong at the time, at least by large segments of the society. I will pull up the example of Moses and divorce. To modern ears, it sounds terrible, but Moses in conveying the law improved the lot of women by an order of magnitude. Similarly, slavery was accepted in all parts of the United States in 1776. I feel that by not condoning it, I have done my part toward addressing the issue without getting down on my knees face toward the ground crying 'mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa' because someone who happened to be white owned and perhaps maltreated a slave. As that goes, I do not even feel the need to invoke my family's participation the end of the institution of slavery--I simply don't own a share of that issue. Yes, I feel pride when I consider the meritorious acts of those who came before me, but again, with the understanding that those deeds do not make me superior in any way, leaving me to stand on my own merits.

I suppose my point in the end, given where this discussion universally leads, is that I don't owe anyone a damned thing because of something someone with the most tenuous connection to me personally did over which I had no control. Similarly, I do not feel entitled to a special charter member citizenship because of my family being represented in the Revolution.

 

[cobber]

As far as I know my ancestors got kicked around various Central and Western European countries trying to avoid oppression and starvation until they came over here in the early 20th century, and then struggled through a world war, a depression and another world war. On my mother's side. My father grew up as the grandson of an orphan in the East End of London (not the good end) before emigrating to the US after WWII and being the first in his family to go to college, etc.

Doubt that there were any crusaders in the family tree. Quite sure no one owned slaves.

Shame? Nope.

It would be kind of irrelevant to feel shame over what people who are now dead did. Better to learn from their mistakes. As for those lecturing the rest of us on how we should feel ashamed of X, Y and Z. Well, get the mote out of your eye first, and then maybe we can have a useful chat...

 

[Kutnupe14]

I would have to disagree. Perhaps I failed to adequately communicate my point. I see no hypocrisy in appreciating the good done by those who came before us without picking up stones and bricks over some deeds which would not be considered so good. First, many of those deeds were not considered wrong at the time, at least by large segments of the society. I will pull up the example of Moses and divorce. To modern ears, it sounds terrible, but Moses in conveying the law improved the lot of women by an order of magnitude. Similarly, slavery was accepted in all parts of the United States in 1776. I feel that by not condoning it, I have done my part toward addressing the issue without getting down on my knees face toward the ground crying 'mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa' because someone who happened to be white owned and perhaps maltreated a slave. As that goes, I do not even feel the need to invoke my family's participation the end of the institution of slavery--I simply don't own a share of that issue. Yes, I feel pride when I consider the meritorious acts of those who came before me, but again, with the understanding that those deeds do not make me superior in any way, leaving me to stand on my own merits.

I suppose my point in the end, given where this discussion universally leads, is that I don't owe anyone a damned thing because of something someone with the most tenuous connection to me personally did over which I had no control. Similarly, I do not feel entitled to a special charter member citizenship because of my family being represented in the Revolution.

Who said you owed anything to anybody if you admit you were disgusted with the actions of past relatives? Just because you are related doesn't make you culpable.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Who said you owed anything to anybody if you admit you were disgusted with the actions of past relatives? Just because you are related doesn't make you culpable.

You must not get out much. The suggestion to the contrary is pretty persistent even if it doesn't get the bad press it would if the shoe were on the other foot.

 

[femurphy77]

Hell No! Whatever they did, for whatever reason is the past. Hell we have people nowadays that feel no remorse for their own actions no matter how demented, wrong, perverse or whatever else it may be and you want them to rue the acts of their forefathers? The grandfather on the mothers side was a freaking nazi. I'm not proud of that fact nor do I hide it, it was a civil postion not military but he was still a nazi. I'm not ashamed of the man as I knew him and that's what matters to me.

 

[jamil]

Note that I am NOT malicious with this statement, but I think you are being a hypocrite while trying to avoid such. You are attempting to justify a positive feeling about the good deeds of people over whom we had no control but avoiding feeling anything negative about the bad deeds they may have also done.

I believe that we shouldn't feel anything at all, yet we do.

Perhaps this is simply part of the human condition, our tribal instincts / pack loyalty / herd mentality of our hard wiring. Or perhaps it is simply our desire to avoid feeling bad about things and wanting to feel good? I don't know. I do believe that if we feel anything positive about our country / culture / heritage then it is hypocritical to say that we shouldn't feel anything negative as well.

Perhaps it is an emotional defense to avoid feeling bad (ie. shame) about a group of people for whom we have always been taught to feel pride (ie. founding fathers, former solders, etc).

I think the OP's original question has much deeper answers than a simple yes / no / bacon response.

Regards,

Doug

I'm going to disagree with this as well. I wouldn't say I feel nothing, nor should I, necessarily. But I think it's fair to define the terms. By "shame" I mean the kind of guilt induced shame of violating one's conscience. By pride I mean the sense you get when you've accomplished or participated in something great.

For example, Jefferson. I admire him for his part in what was accomplished for this country. At the same time I can also recognize the evil he did as well. I don't feel pride--I didn't participate in what he helped accomplish. But I do feel a sense of admiration and appreciation. I don't feel shame for him owning slaves. I didn't participate in that either. I shouldn't feel guilty for that, or bear any responsibility for that. But I do feel disdain that he could see that all white men have the same natural rights, but he missed that women and people with different colored skin pigment have the same basis for the same rights.

So my question really is a simple yes or no. The emotions we're speaking about are shame or pride. You either believe you should feel that guilt induced shame or not.

BTW, I clarified the question in the OP.

 

[MisterChester]

It really depends. Our ancestors did not have the luxury of going into the future to see the consequences of their actions. America has committed many atrocities in its history. It's normal to look back at them and think they were shameful actions. Or you can go farther than that, and say Americans with German ancestry feel shame that their home country was once headed by Hitler. So yes, I think it's normal to feel some degree of shame. It mostly depends on what it was and why they did it. But should they? I don't know.