Should people feel shame for the deeds of their ancestors?

[jwh20]

Much is made about mostly, but not entirely, white slave traders. But nothing is ever said about black slave wholesalers in Africa that facilitated the productization of their own brothers and sisters. These people rounded up the "product" and sold them at wholesale to the traders who took them to market (i.e. retail) in the United States and elsewhere.

So just like today we have blacks preying on blacks. Do black lives really matter to blacks?

 

[KG1]

Feel shame if you want but do not allow yourself to BE shamed into a reconciliatory action of atonement by an aggrieved party seeking satisfaction for the past indiscretions of another.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Feel shame if you want but do not allow yourself to BE shamed into a reconciliatory action of atonement by an aggrieved party seeking satisfaction for the past indiscretions of another.

I find it infuriating when people make the argument that I, who have never owned a slave, should make concessions to people who have never been slaves, because people of broad ethnic similarity with me owned slaves who were of broad ethnic similarity with those seeking to capitalize on a situation that ended a century and a half ago.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I try to learn from the mistakes of others and celebrate the great things they do (related to me or not).

 

[Thor]

People seem to feel I should be ashamed for my ancestry when they have no idea who my ancestors are. "Oh, look you're a (apply racist glasses) therefore you owe me."

My ancestors went walkabout when Napoleon attacked them in Bavaria. They didn't come to this country until after WWI. How is it that I might be responsible for something the British brought to this country before it was America?

I am decades past putting up with that line of reasoning. Even if you are a direct descendant of Jeff Davis...so freaking what. You didn't do it, and unless you try to do it again you're not that guy. People need to give up on trying to reclaim something of wealth from a past they didn't participate in. Either that or I want a freaking castle in Bavaria back. Until then...you got nothing on me.

 

[.45 Dave]

I don't feel any shame from my ancestors and some were slave owners. That was then and them and this is now and me. I do take pride in some of my ancestors and I frown on some of them (one was an old west outlaw that got killed in a gun fight!). I also realize that I have some of their genes but really, they lived in a different world than I do. Different morals, different beliefs, different outlook on life. I might as well feel ashamed of Nancy Pelosi. (Well, actually I do but only because we share the same species...I think.)

 

[printcraft]

I don't give a **** who your parents are or are not.

If you claim to be self aware you are responsible and accountable for your own actions.
I will judge you for YOUR actions. I will accept judgement over MY actions.
Pretty simple concept.

 

[BugI02]

I find it hard to quantify what I sometimes feel, when I feel anything at all. I don't think shame is quite the right term, as it is too personal. As an example of the sort of thing that makes me uneasy, i would put forth the trail of tears. The closest I can come is that it seems somehow dishonorable, like our own Bataan Death March. But as another poster mentioned, different times and very different social norms. I think this feeling of unease might be necessary in order to learn from historical mistakes, else you may not feel anything should be done differently if the situation in question does not make you uneasy on some level. But as others have said, I don't feel personal responsibilty for the actions of these predecessors, they are too far removed. I guess the things I think of as wrong offend my personal sense of honor.

 

[oldpink]

Collective and inherited guilt are for those who lack critical thinking skills and/or don't want to live as a free people.

+1 and rep inbound

Edit: Doh! Miguel has already used up his allowance from me.

 

[rhino]

Being expected to feel shame for the actions or inaction of one's ancestors is absurd.

Attempting to shame someone for the actions or inaction of their ancestors is both absurd and a classic douche bag move.

Attempting to shame someone for the actions or inaction of people who preceded them just because they resemble them physically is also absurd, douche bag-laden, and worthy of contempt. Doing so while conveniently neglecting the same for one's own predecessors magnifies it further with the lens of hypocrisy.

Here's a thought:

If the discussion is about white people feeling guilt or shame for what white people did in the past, should not everyone who has at least one white ancestor share the burden?

"When a man points a finger at someone else, he should remember that four of his fingers are pointing at himself." -- Louis Nizer​

 

[Cerberus]

It really depends. Our ancestors did not have the luxury of going into the future to see the consequences of their actions. America has committed SOME atrocities in its history. It's normal to look back at them and [STRIKE]think they were shameful actions[/STRIKE] learn from the bad example. Or you can go farther than that, and say Americans with German ancestry feel shame that their home country was once headed by Hitler. So yes, I think it's NOT normal to feel some degree of shame. It mostly depends on what it was and why they did it. But should they? I don't know.

FIFY. Is this what they teach in our schools today? See post #18

 

[Bfish]

Since when do your ancestors have anything to do with how you are as a person. Heck parents have limited influence on kids much less ancestors from long ago... You are who you choose to be, ancestors or no ancestors.... Just my thoughts when it comes down to it.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm debating if I should dole out a few helpings of crow.

Kut (thinks this is why polls should be kept anon)

 

[jamil]

I'm debating if I should dole out a few helpings of crow.

Kut (thinks this is why polls should be kept anon)

I have some regrets about this poll as it did not turn out like I thought. I thought as strongly as some have pushed back at me that people would own their point of view. Ironically, I didn't think making it public would actually shame people into withholding their vote.

I strongly believed that there is a class of people who just won't be "identity" shamed, and there's a class of people who just, maybe naturally, feel some sense of responsibility. I guess because of identity. I understand the former, because I'm in that class. I know exactly why I won't be shamed for something I didn't do. Maybe it's personality. It would be interesting to ask this question and correlate to people's myers-briggs score. Maybe the split is in the thinking/feeling types.

Anyway, bottom line, I want to understand why America is so easily shamed into conformance. I want to know why people are so afraid to hoist their middle fingers at the shamers. I think the people who feel this "identity shame" are the most vulnerable to the tyranny-by-shame trend.

 

[jamil]

It really depends. Our ancestors did not have the luxury of going into the future to see the consequences of their actions. America has committed many atrocities in its history. It's normal to look back at them and think they were shameful actions. Or you can go farther than that, and say Americans with German ancestry feel shame that their home country was once headed by Hitler. So yes, I think it's normal to feel some degree of shame. It mostly depends on what it was and why they did it. But should they? I don't know.

"America" has not committed atrocities. Whatever atrocities have been committed, individuals did that. "America" didn't **** up Iraq in 2003. Bush did. "America" didn't **** up Iraq even worse in 2014, Barack Obama did. America, the individuals thereof, are collectively blamed for the sins of its leaders. But "America" didn't select Bush as it's leader. 50.7% of the people who bothered to vote, elected him. Same with Obama, only slightly less at 50.6%. America is not monolithic. It is comprised of individuals. Some individuals suck. Some don't so much.

The only sense in which "America" has committed atrocities, is the sense in which we've devised a system that is effectively powerless to hold our leaders accountable for their policies and actions.

I don't know where you get this "America" has committed atrocities from. Do they teach that in schools now? For all you students in INGO land, if your teachers tell you America has committed atrocities and needs to feel shame for that, stand up, raise your middle finger, and repeat after me. "I am an American. Unscrupulous individuals may have done that. But I didn't do that. I owe you no shame."

 

[findingZzero]

Dupe

 

[findingZzero]

I'm ashamed at what my ancestors and their sheep did to the rain forests of the Middle East.

I'm ashamed at 'the Big Bang.' It was just supposed to be a prank.

I'm ashamed of that red headed white guy soldier in"Dances With Wolves" who used Dunbar's diary for toilet paper. I'm ashamed that I couldn't prevent that Nazi officer from raping that French farm girl when strafing from my Mustang missed the bastard.

I'm ashamed when after I did a dead stick landing (out of fuel) and shot the bastard with my .45, I ended up sleeping with Nanette and didn't use a condom.

I'm ashamed of suppressing my innate lesbian tendencies.

And, finally, happy birthday America! I'm ashamed i didn't get you anything.

 

[BugI02]

" ......

Allow me to play Devil's advocate. Before INGO get out the pitchforks and the torches, this is NOT my viewpoint on this but rather a rhetorical point

I don't know where you get this [STRIKE]"America"[/STRIKE] "Islam" has committed atrocities from. Do they teach that in schools now? For all you students in INGO land, if your teachers tell you [STRIKE]America[/STRIKE] Islam has committed atrocities and needs to feel shame for that, stand up, raise your middle finger, and repeat after me. "I am [STRIKE]an American[/STRIKE] a muslim. Unscrupulous individuals may have done that. But I didn't do that. I owe you no shame."

Would you then argue that muslims should not be ashamed of the actions of the 'unscrupulous individuals', because that does not seem to be the prevailing sentiment. Nor has anyone taken THEM to task for anything other than not being ashamed enough.

Also, when I was young and much more 'In Your Face' about things, if I had responded to some lecture from my elder (you) by flipping you off and saying 'P*ss off, tourist', I'm not so sure you would have celebrated my self confidence and independent thinking

 

[oldpink]

One of my ancestors in direct lineage to my fraternal grandmother, while living in Maryland, actually voluntary took a whipping for a slave to spare the slave.
He was a devout Quaker and lived his abolitionists beliefs to the ultimate extent.
Other immediate ancestors of my fraternal grandmother were actually part of the Underground Railroad.
I have no ancestors on either side of my family who took part in slavery or even in the Civil War on either side.
Do I feel a sense of pride about that?
Yes, but a sense of pride that only they deserved.
I don't think I deserve any greater privileges because of their good and even incredibly gallant deeds, not any more than I believe that those of you (and there are some) who have ancestors who had slaves or fought for the Confederacy deserve some kind of penalty.
The whole idea of punishment for the deeds of a person's ancestors is bizarre and the exact sort of thing that such garden spots as North Korea do.
Yes, North Korea punishes entire families for what a single member may have done as a "crime against the state," a "crime" that you can imagine has a very elastic meaning, to put it mildly.
How does anyone here feel about modeling our society after North Korea's?

 

[oldpink]

Would you then argue that muslims should not be ashamed of the actions of the 'unscrupulous individuals', because that does not seem to be the prevailing sentiment. Nor has anyone taken THEM to task for anything other than not being ashamed enough.

Also, when I was young and much more 'In Your Face' about things, if I had responded to some lecture from my elder (you) by flipping you off and saying 'P*ss off, tourist', I'm not so sure you would have celebrated my self confidence and independent thinking

If you actually would countenance a teacher behaving in such a manner, you deserve a flipping off.