Why Are So Many Still Against Hemp / Marijuana ?

[Ericpwp]

Let me rephrase

I don't see where I said addicts should be locked up, or where I said prohibition decreases addiction. Making a substance illegal decreases its availability. That in turn decreases addicts (or potential addicts) exposure to that substance.

 

[Ericpwp]

including your definition of 'addict'.

Let me google that for you

 

[steveh_131]

Let's make this question more general.

Do you have any evidence that prohibition decreases any of the negative impacts of drug use on society?

It increases crime. It makes the available substances more dangerous. It increases government. It decreases freedom.

What's the upside?

 

[Ericpwp]

Society deems what is criminal. Decreasing crime by making a crime legal is disingenuous. How is illegal pot more dangerous than legal pot, do you not trust the guy selling it? He doesn't carry a gun, does he? You think that ending "prohibition" is going to decrease government? Ask a junky looking for his next fix about freedom.

 

[steveh_131]

Society deems what is criminal. Decreasing crime by making a crime legal is disingenuous.

Eh. I guess I was unclear. I meant crimes other than doing drugs increase with prohibition. Murders, robberies, etc. all increase in the presence of a black market. Alcohol prohibition proved this.

How is illegal pot more dangerous than legal pot, do you not trust the guy selling it?

During alcohol prohibition, moonshine became popular. Because it was produced in a black market, it had no safety measures and was often quite dangerous.

Prohibition of safer drugs is the reason we have horrific drugs such as crystal meth and crack.

You think that ending "prohibition" is going to decrease government?

Of course. We have entire departments of government dedicated to enforcing prohibition.

Ask a junky looking for his next fix about freedom.

I don't even know what this means.

 

[Ericpwp]

Eh. I guess I was unclear. I meant crimes other than doing drugs increase with prohibition. Murders, robberies, etc. all increase in the presence of a black market. Alcohol prohibition proved this.

During alcohol prohibition, moonshine became popular. Because it was produced in a black market, it had no safety measures and was often quite dangerous.

You can't compare alcohol prohibition to MJ. MJ wasn't ingrained into society then made illegal overnight.

So, you think that the black market will just evaporate when "prohibition is repealed"?

Prohibition of safer drugs is the reason we have horrific drugs such as crystal meth and crack.

You actually believe because the lack of safer drugs, harder drugs are created?

Of course. We have entire departments of government dedicated to enforcing prohibition.

Tell that to the guy choked out for selling cigarettes.

I don't even know what this means.

This proves a lot to me.

 

[steveh_131]

You can't compare alcohol prohibition to MJ. MJ wasn't ingrained into society then made illegal overnight.

What does that have to do with anything? Marijuana is certainly ingrained into society, regardless of prohibition.

So, you think that the black market will just evaporate when "prohibition is repealed"?

The sector of the black market that deals with whatever is no longer prohibited will disappear, yes. Just as with alcohol.

You actually believe because the lack of safer drugs, harder drugs are created?

I didn't say harder. I said cheaper and more dangerous. Again, this is history. Home-made moonshine was killing people during prohibition. Why do you think moonshine disappeared? Now you can buy an equivalent (everclear) that is free of poisons and has an exact ABV rating, allowing you to portion it responsibly.

Tell that to the guy choked out for selling cigarettes.

Yes, because what he was doing was prohibited. You've nailed it quite perfectly.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The sector of the black market that deals with whatever is no longer prohibited will disappear, yes. Just as with alcohol.

That's apparently not what they are seeing in Colorado.

If you think there is no black market for legal items I think you need to sniff around a bit more.

 

[steveh_131]

That's apparently not what they are seeing in Colorado.

Show me a black market, and I will show you the government regulations that it serves to bypass. Including Colorado.

 

[Ericpwp]

What does that have to do with anything? Marijuana is certainly ingrained into society, regardless of prohibition.

Alcohol prohibition was a flash in the pan. I think you think MJ is more ingrained then it is. Do you think there are more people that tried MJ, or more that tried a beer?

The sector of the black market that deals with whatever is no longer prohibited will disappear, yes. Just as with alcohol.

and the pushers are all going to become farmers.

I didn't say harder. I said cheaper and more dangerous. Again, this is history. Home-made moonshine was killing people during prohibition. Why do you think moonshine disappeared? Now you can buy an equivalent (everclear) that is free of poisons and has an exact ABV rating, allowing you to portion it responsibly.

Say "more addictive". Better for return customers. But, that market will just dry up. Again, bad MJ will not kill you, so irrelevant.

Yes, because what he was doing was prohibited. You've nailed it quite perfectly.

And MJ will not be taxed...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Show me a black market, and I will show you the government regulations that it serves to bypass. Including Colorado.

Taxes. Didn't take much to realize that.

 

[steveh_131]

Alcohol prohibition was a flash in the pan. I think you think MJ is more ingrained then it is. Do you think there are more people that tried MJ, or more that tried a beer?

I have no data on this. I'd be interested to see yours, since you are making this assertion.

and the pushers are all going to become farmers.

The less profit we offer to black market participants, the fewer participants there will be. This is simple economics.

Again, this is history. I'm not making this up. You can read all about it.

Say "more addictive". Better for return customers. But, that market will just dry up. Again, bad MJ will not kill you, so irrelevant.

It won't dry up. But they'd be able to purchase it and use it more safely and at proper market prices. There are still plenty of drunks post-prohibition. They just go to a liquor store instead of a speakeasy, and they don't have to rob a gas station to be able to afford their next drink.

And MJ will not be taxed...

If we at least cut back the taxes and regulations to the levels that we now use for alcohol, there would certainly be a huge drop in black market activity and associated violence.

Or we can continue to repeat history over and over again.

 

[steveh_131]

Taxes. Didn't take much to realize that.

Taxes, yes. But it goes beyond that. Supply is still heavily restricted. High taxes + restricted supply = black market.

At the very least, it should be treated like liquor. Bare minimum. That was pretty much enough to eliminate the black market.

 

[steveh_131]

Homicide Rates

 

[steveh_131]

Increased government:

Prohibition not only created the Bureau of Prohibition, it gave rise to a dramatic increase in the size and power of other government agencies as well. Between 1920 and 1930 employment at the Customs Service increased 45 percent, and the service's annual budget increased 123 percent. Personnel of the Coast Guard increased 188 percent during the 1920s, and its budget increased more than 500 percent between 1915 and 1932. Those increases were primarily due to the Coast Guard's and the Customs Service's role in enforcing Prohibition.[SUP]][/SUP]

Increased prison expenditures:

The explosion in the prison population greatly increased spending on prisons and led to severe overcrowding. Total federal expenditures on penal institutions increased more than 1,000 percent between 1915 and 1932. Despite those expenditures and new prison space, prisons were severely overcrowded. In 1929 the normal capacity of Atlanta Penitentiary and Leavenworth Prison was approximately 1,500 each, but their actual population exceeded 3,700 each.

Increased violent crime:

The Volstead Act, passed to enforce the Eighteenth Amendment, had an immediate impact on crime. According to a study of 30 major U.S. cities, the number of crimes increased 24 percent between 1920 and 1921. The study revealed that during that period more money was spent on po- lice (11.4+ percent) and more people were arrested for violating Prohibition laws (102+ percent). But increased law enforcement efforts did not appear to reduce drinking: arrests for drunkenness and disorderly conduct increased 41 percent, and arrests of drunken drivers increased 81 percent. Among crimes with victims, thefts and burglaries increased 9 percent, while homicides and incidents of assault and battery increased 13 percent.[SUP][42][/SUP] More crimes were committed because prohibition destroys legal jobs, creates black-market violence, diverts resources from enforcement of other laws, and greatly increases the prices people have to pay for the prohibited goods.

Increased alcohol-related deaths:

The death rate from alcoholism bottomed out just before the enforcement of Prohibition and then returned to pre-World War I levels.[SUP][29][/SUP] That was probably the result of increased consumption during Prohibition and the consumption of more potent and poisonous alcoholic beverages.

Source: Alcohol Prohibition Was A Failure

 

[Cerberus]

Steve H, you are arguing with a Statist. All this info has long been available and yet he still believes the long debunked myths. Read my sig line.

 

[rambone]

Let's make sure our definitions are consistent. I define statism as a belief that the state's concern is more important than individual rights. There may be some circumstances, where people who would ordinarily be opposed to that idea, might believe that some freedoms impose dire consequences on the rest of society, and approve of limited impositions on individual liberty. That's why we have laws against many drugs, or at least the pretense of why we have those laws.

I think 95% of the time (I'm rounding), I'll side with individual liberty. Am I a statist because of the 5%? The way you've stated it, essentially that any imposition on personal liberty is statist, then the only non-statists that can exist are anarchists. But all sovereign states, even the freest, impose some rules that limit individual liberty.

I've said this before, but everyone thinks they are on the side of liberty. They believe it in their hearts too. Liberty and justice for all!! Find me anybody who admits the opposite.

Meanwhile these same people rationalize throwing their neighbors in prison over the most absurd offenses imaginable. Yes, a person (generic) who claims to support freedom 95% of the time can easily be a statist. Just observe the torrent of innocent lives destroyed because of the statist's irrational support of statist solutions.

If prohibitionists don't make the statist list, then NOBODY will. It is a use of government that violates every aspect of liberty and justice.

 

[D-Ric902]

But Monsanto would GMO pot, and then sue anybody else that grows it.
Roundup Ready Pot

 

[Ericpwp]

Stoners gonna stone.
Stoners, the next protected class. You can't give me a drug test! I don't care if I spend half the day looking for my pen, it's my right!

 

[rambone]

Stoners gonna stone.
Stoners, the next protected class. You can't give me a drug test! I don't care if I spend half the day looking for my pen, it's my right!

What percent of the time would you say you stand up for personal freedom?