For Those That Carry On an Empty Chamber

[wtburnette]

When I first started carrying, I carried with nothing in the pipe, mostly because I was very new to guns and was afraid I might do something to cause a ND. This fear was mostly with drawing and holstering the gun. At the time, I was using a Blackhawk Serpa for OC and an Alien Gear for CC. As I became more confident with the gun and learned to keep my finger off of the trigger and to check the holster as I re-holstered, I began to carry with one in the pipe. I only did that for about a month before I ended up buying an M&P Shield. I carry it with one in the pipe, but it's a bit different as it has an external safety that I also use. Completely comfortable with this. I practice drawing and sweeping the safety off several times a day and can do it quickly and without issue.

 

[ModernGunner]

Something that might be notable here is that with safety issues (generally, not just specific to firearms), it's often NOT the 'newbie' that has the incident, but the experienced. Statistically, it's the 'old-timer' (experience, not age) that's MORE likely to have an incident / accident.

There's truth in the old adage, 'familiarity breeds contempt'. "I've done it a thousand times, so I have NO problems". That mindset is what frequently causes ND's. The long time user of that piece of equipment sustains the greater chance for serious injury than the new user.

As noted in this thread, the 'newbie' is often, let's call it 'overly cautious' (which is a GOOD thing). As we become more comfortable with our action, repeated day after day, it becomes so 'automatic' that we fail to focus on an action in which constant focus is demanded.

No matter how many times you've carried that specific firearm, no matter how many times you've loaded and unloaded it over however many years, no matter how many training classes or competitions you have under your belt, every time is a 'new event'. Every time you load or unload, or otherwise handle or manipulate that inanimate object is a FIRST time event for that moment (for that day, for that week, for that range outing, etc.)

Your firearm has no 'memory'. It does not 'know' you've owned it for years. It doesn't 'care' that you treat it well, maintain it, perhaps 'pamper' it. It has NO mind, hence NO 'conscience'. Today, or tomorrow, it will kill you, just as easily and just as 'thoughtlessly' as the first day you 'met' it. And IF it does, it will feel NO 'remorse' for doing so. It'll kill the next person that picks it up, if they treat it so thoughtlessly, as well. AND the next.

So, when stating, "I'm now entirely comfortable with my super-duper, bad-azz gun", don't be.

As soon as you start treating it as a 'long time, trusted friend', and ignore it's potential, it'll hurt you.

EVERY time.

 

[richardraw316]

I have to agree with everything said above. It is why I don't dry fire my weapons. My finger does not touch trigger till I am ready to fire. I do not want to get into a habit of instinctively feeling the trigger with my finger. When I have that moment that I have to shoot someone or something I want the trigger to feel foreign to my finger I believe this will make me more conscious of what I am doing. My trigger pulling happens at the range. Well and one time while at the gun store before I buy it.

As for carrying chambered. I did not at first. My comfort level was not high enough to trust that mode of carry. I was afraid I would forget that it was chambered and pull the trigger. Which is why I started using the method described above. To give myself more confidence carrying chambered, I have made it feel weird to pull the trigger on any gun. It seems to work.

 

[JetGirl]

STILL.......ain' gonna 'go-off'......even flip'd off......or should'n......STILL got'a have 2 events happen fer 'at hammer ta fall....

Yeah, I know. That was some years back when I was a 1911Noob.

Thanks, JetGirl.

When you carried the revolver with the empty chamber, was the chamber under the hammer empty? Or the next one in line that would line up if the trigger was pulled? I know someone that leaves the chamber under the hammer empty in case it drops so that it doesn't go off. He thinks (wrongly) that it will go off if dropped. Sounds like you were worried about the trigger somehow getting pulled, which is a different.

You have to understand I was a complete novice and (although had the dates lined up for training in the near future) at that time did not even understand the mechanics. It's safe to say I went about it bass ackward.
Anyhow, yes I carried on an empty under the hammer. I did not realize that the first action on the SA/DA trigger was actually rotating to the next chamber. So *if* my apprehension would have been valid, I would have discharged a round anyway. However, *if* I had needed it in SHTF, it wouldn't have rotated to an empty chamber "failing me"...
Anyhow...
looking back, it's amazing to me just how much I didn't know then that makes me cringe when people (who also don't know) do/say the same things today. You're doing a good deed finding out this stuff to use in your classes in order to allay your students' worries.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

It is why I don't dry fire my weapons.

Uhhh... really?

Dry fire is some of the absolute best trigger control practice there is.

-J-

 

[Expatriated]

I appreciate all the responses from those that carry/carried unchambered. I want to continue to get feedback from you guys. So, I hope you don't feel attacked when someone else posts why you shouldn't in this thread. There are other threads for arguing that.

In fact, I have a thread yesterday in the Training section about my thoughts on it. Check it out and post in there if you want. It's even called Unchambered Means Unprepared.

But, on this thread, I want us to be in the trust tree I sincerely want to hear your thoughts and rationale on carrying unchambered.

Thanks!

 

[Expatriated]

I have to agree with everything said above. It is why I don't dry fire my weapons. My finger does not touch trigger till I am ready to fire. I do not want to get into a habit of instinctively feeling the trigger with my finger. When I have that moment that I have to shoot someone or something I want the trigger to feel foreign to my finger I believe this will make me more conscious of what I am doing. My trigger pulling happens at the range. Well and one time while at the gun store before I buy it.

As for carrying chambered. I did not at first. My comfort level was not high enough to trust that mode of carry. I was afraid I would forget that it was chambered and pull the trigger. Which is why I started using the method described above. To give myself more confidence carrying chambered, I have made it feel weird to pull the trigger on any gun. It seems to work.

Thanks, Richard. I find this alot. That students are fearful that something (they normally can't articulate what exactly) will happen and that they will pull the trigger. in their mind, the stakes are so high, it's better to avoid it all together. I've seen plenty of this.

It sounds like you carry chambered now--what got you comfortable enough? Was it just time? Experience? Training?

Thanks!

 

[T.Lex]

Here is my rationale - it depends. If I'm carrying my Glock, I typically do not have a round in the chamber because there is no external safety. If I'm carrying my SW 915, I do have one in the chamber because of the external safety. And yes, I've trained differently with the 2 firearms.

To explain, for me, it starts with some probabilities.

1) The reality is that an AD/ND is more likely than me needing to shoot someone in self defense. So, to try to minimize the AD/ND issue with the Glock, empty chamber. It isn't about eliminating risk - external safeties can fail, etc. - but about mitigating it.

2) I see self defense shootings in a continuum. On one end, you have enough "warning" (whatever the circumstances may be) to fully prepare and take aim. A long OODA loop. On the other end, you have a surprise attack that you can do nothing about whatsoever - boom, headshot, you're dead, couldn't do anything about it. In the middle, or really, towards the boomyou'redead end, there is a gradation where sometimes you'll have time to chamber a round and sometimes you won't. It is really that line that you're talking about. What is the probability of a specific set of circumstances happening that will make that split second the deciding factor in effective self defense?

Then, for me, it is balancing the probability of that sliver of the continuum against the risk of an AD/ND. With my Glock, I see the risk of an AD/ND as greater than the probability of that set of circumstances. YMMV.

Would it suck to be dead because I was more afraid of an AD/ND than being sufficiently prepared? Yeah. Definitely. Would it suck to accidentally kill someone or myself because I was prepared for a sliver of a probability? Yeah. Definitely. But, that's my rationale.

 

[Expatriated]

Here is my rationale - it depends. If I'm carrying my Glock, I typically do not have a round in the chamber because there is no external safety. If I'm carrying my SW 915, I do have one in the chamber because of the external safety. And yes, I've trained differently with the 2 firearms.

To explain, for me, it starts with some probabilities.

1) The reality is that an AD/ND is more likely than me needing to shoot someone in self defense. So, to try to minimize the AD/ND issue with the Glock, empty chamber. It isn't about eliminating risk - external safeties can fail, etc. - but about mitigating it.

2) I see self defense shootings in a continuum. On one end, you have enough "warning" (whatever the circumstances may be) to fully prepare and take aim. A long OODA loop. On the other end, you have a surprise attack that you can do nothing about whatsoever - boom, headshot, you're dead, couldn't do anything about it. In the middle, or really, towards the boomyou'redead end, there is a gradation where sometimes you'll have time to chamber a round and sometimes you won't. It is really that line that you're talking about. What is the probability of a specific set of circumstances happening that will make that split second the deciding factor in effective self defense?

Then, for me, it is balancing the probability of that sliver of the continuum against the risk of an AD/ND. With my Glock, I see the risk of an AD/ND as greater than the probability of that set of circumstances. YMMV.

Would it suck to be dead because I was more afraid of an AD/ND than being sufficiently prepared? Yeah. Definitely. Would it suck to accidentally kill someone or myself because I was prepared for a sliver of a probability? Yeah. Definitely. But, that's my rationale.

Thank you for a very detailed explanation that you've clearly thought through.

Let me go back to the first point for a second regarding the Glock. You stated that you don't carry chambered with the Glock because there is no external safety. So, you reckon a greater probability for an ND with this setup and as a result carry unchambered.

Do you see the potential ND coming from an internal malfunction of the gun? Like it gets impacted and goes off? Or are you more concerned with something that YOU will do to make the weapon go off, i.e. finger in the trigger? Or both?

 

[T.Lex]

Thank you for not judging.

Do you see the potential ND coming from an internal malfunction of the gun? Like it gets impacted and goes off? Or are you more concerned with something that YOU will do to make the weapon go off, i.e. finger in the trigger? Or both?

VERY little concern of me coonfingering it.

My far greater concern relates to how I carry. I am 99% CC. I only OC in situations where it is "normal" and unlikely to draw attention - at a range, at a family farm/ranch where others are doing it, too. (Again, no judgement, just explaining my own reality.) When I CC, it is usually IWB at my side or the small of my back. My holster does cover the trigger guard and there's a snap over the back of the slide that my thumb naturally opens when I draw.

With that in mind, I had a friend who had an AD with an OC Glock and a chambered round. It was a complete fluke - had the ball part of the drawstring of his jacket get caught inside the holster, inside the trigger, and when he adjusted it, BOOM. This was in front of credible witnesses.

So, I figure, given how I carry, I am more likely to have it get hung up on clothing or something else whacky.

Edit:
Oh, there's one other difference worth noting: I am far more likely to get the Glock out and chamber a round earlier in my OODA loop than I would even get out my 915. I guess my "trigger" (pardon the pun) gets more sensitive based on the gun I have, if that makes sense.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Edit:
Oh, there's one other difference worth noting: I am far more likely to get the Glock out and chamber a round earlier in my OODA loop than I would even get out my 915. I guess my "trigger" (pardon the pun) gets more sensitive based on the gun I have, if that makes sense.

(can you do it one-handed?)

 

[T.Lex]

(can you do it one-handed?)

Wait. What are we talking about?

Oh yeah - no. I don't think I can chamber a round one-handed. Although, I don't know I've ever tried, either. I think I could do it with one hand and one elbow, though.

 

[TheEngineer]

(can you do it one-handed?)

Wait. What are we talking about?

Oh yeah - no. I don't think I can chamber a round one-handed. Although, I don't know I've ever tried, either. I think I could do it with one hand and one elbow, though.

I think what Indy_Guy is getting at is you cant always count on having both hands free to manipulate your firearm...i.e. if you are fending off an attacker with your left hand/arm.


OP...^^this is what made me start carrying with a chambered round.

When i first started carrying (Glock 22) i never carried with one chambered. I had been raised shooting longguns and was always taught to engage the safety until i was firing and didn't have a lot of experiences with handguns. I was fairly new to carrying and the thought of not having a safety made me uncomfortable and worried about ND...both from error on my part or weapon malfunction (bump, drop, etc.).

I would remove the gun from the holster every night and put it in the nightstand...morning came, holster went on (quality holster, CompTac MTAC) and gun was inserted. I was convinced (like many) that i would be able to chamber a round when necessary, i mean it only takes a fraction of a second right?

The more time i spent on INGO and other sites, the more knowledgeable i became about both the likelihood of me being able to chambering a round in a self-defense situation (not very likely at all) as well as the mechanics of the gun i was carrying (internal safeties of the Glock). I read stories of actual self defense scenarios (as opposed to hollywood ones) and listened to the advice of other INGOers. I realized one day that all i had on my hip was a short, funny shaped club at best.

I became comfortable with the fact that my firearm would not go off without something on the trigger...but i still saw reholstering as a potential for disaster (clothing catching, etc). So i changed the steps i took in the morning/at night. The gun does not leave the holster (unless if shooting or cleaning)...the holster comes off and goes on with the gun in it.

Been carrying chambered ever since.

 

[T.Lex]

Ah - right.

If my SA was complete crap and I'm being outmatched, I separate, draw/chamber. I've had some basic close in fighting training and feel like I have the skills to GTFO. I'm not proud and I play to my strengths. I'm fast. Absent any reason to stay in the fight (protecting family or something), I'll run like a deer. I'm not going to judo jockey with a guy.

This kinda turns into a variation of the boomheadshot. Even with good SA, if I get surprised, there's not much I can do about it, anyway. If a guy is grappling with me, I have to get inside his OODA and get to my strengths.

Otherwise, I have to trust my SA that I'll recognize early enough to either avoid a confrontation or draw/chamber and be ready.

Edit: on the topic of grappling, in my continuum, there is even a smaller probability that I'll be in a specific set of circumstances where I'll only have 1 hand available. In that sense, an AD/ND is more probable. Plus, in a grappling situation, without separation, it might be worse to try to go for a chambered handgun and be more vulnerable to the attacker that's right on you. False sense of security issue.

Plus, since I CC, if the guy is grappling with me, he probably doesn't know I'm armed.

 

[EyeCarry]

day, it becomes so 'automatic' that we fail to focus on an action in which constant focus is demanded.

No matter how many times you've carried that specific firearm, no matter how many times you've loaded and unloaded it over however many years, no matter how many training classes or competitions you have under your belt, every time is a 'new event'. Every time you load or unload, or otherwise handle or manipulate that inanimate object is a FIRST time event for that moment (for that day, for that week, for that range outing, etc.)

Your firearm has no 'memory'. It does not 'know' you've owned it for years. It doesn't 'care' that you treat it well, maintain it, perhaps 'pamper' it. It has NO mind, hence NO 'conscience'. Today, or tomorrow, it will kill you, just as easily and just as 'thoughtlessly' as the first day you 'met' it. And IF it does, it will feel NO 'remorse' for doing so. It'll kill the next person that picks it up, if they treat it so thoughtlessly, as well. AND the next.

So, when stating, "I'm now entirely comfortable with my super-duper, bad-azz gun", don't be.

As soon as you start treating it as a 'long time, trusted friend', and ignore it's potential, it'll hurt you.

EVERY time.

I have to agree with this. I've been around machinery my whole life. They will take off a finger, arm punch a hole in you, run over you and keep on going without remorse. Always respect the power that WE have designed them with.

 

[Expatriated]

Thank you for not judging.


VERY little concern of me coonfingering it.

My far greater concern relates to how I carry. I am 99% CC. I only OC in situations where it is "normal" and unlikely to draw attention - at a range, at a family farm/ranch where others are doing it, too. (Again, no judgement, just explaining my own reality.) When I CC, it is usually IWB at my side or the small of my back. My holster does cover the trigger guard and there's a snap over the back of the slide that my thumb naturally opens when I draw.

With that in mind, I had a friend who had an AD with an OC Glock and a chambered round. It was a complete fluke - had the ball part of the drawstring of his jacket get caught inside the holster, inside the trigger, and when he adjusted it, BOOM. This was in front of credible witnesses.

So, I figure, given how I carry, I am more likely to have it get hung up on clothing or something else whacky.

Edit:
Oh, there's one other difference worth noting: I am far more likely to get the Glock out and chamber a round earlier in my OODA loop than I would even get out my 915. I guess my "trigger" (pardon the pun) gets more sensitive based on the gun I have, if that makes sense.

Thanks a bunch! This lines up with what others who do the same say. So, there is a certain consistency out there.

 

[richardraw316]

Thanks, Richard. I find this alot. That students are fearful that something (they normally can't articulate what exactly) will happen and that they will pull the trigger. in their mind, the stakes are so high, it's better to avoid it all together. I've seen plenty of this.

It sounds like you carry chambered now--what got you comfortable enough? Was it just time? Experience? Training?

Thanks!

When I started carrying on regular basis I had a Glock 22. I did trust myself with the Glock. It was not the Glock fault. It was mine. I was irrationally thinking I would forget a round was chambered and pull the trigger. My imagination was my worst enemy. On top of that it had a trigger job done to it and the trigger was lighter than I realized I was comfortable with. I should have left it with the ny trigger spring in it. To fix this fear caused by imagination I made a conscious decision to never pull the trigger. I have gone so long without dry firing the act of dry firing feels very weird to me. It has put my mind at ease. I believe in having a good holster can almost eliminate nd. My personal mental prep has eliminated my fear of nd caused by me. I know carry chambered I feel safer for it. But when it comes to the tool, I prefer da/sa or revolvers for carry.

 

[rhino]

Oh yeah - no. I don't think I can chamber a round one-handed. Although, I don't know I've ever tried, either. I think I could do it with one hand and one elbow, though.

This is an issue that everyone needs to consider (although few do), regardless of how you choose to carry your gun. There are many reasons why you may not have use of two hands to chamber round. You should know how to manipulate and use your gun with one hand (both right and left handed).

Learning how to do this safely and efficiently is an eye-opener for a lot of people. It's also illustrates some good lessons that lead most to realize that 1) you should carry your gun actually loaded, not just with a charged magazine inserted, and 2) you probably need at least a second gun that you can readily access with your support hand.

 

[lovemachine]

Last year, I took a one-handed manipulations class by rhino and coach. The class was a HUGE eye opener for me. It completely changed the way I carry a gun.

And for what it's worth, I used to carry without a round chambered too. After taking a class with ACT, I no longer do it, and have learned the error of my ways.

For anyone that has posted in this thread, or anyone else out there that carry without a round chambered, I hope you all look into taking a class with ACT.

The training is very very VERY affordable, and you will receive high quality training.

 

[ModernGunner]

Oh, there's one other difference worth noting: I am far more likely to get the Glock out and chamber a round earlier in my OODA loop than I would even get out my 915. I guess my "trigger" (pardon the pun) gets more sensitive based on the gun I have, if that makes sense.

I apologize in advance as it's not my intention to hijack Expat's thread as I think it's quite important to furthering training for everyone. Hey, I'm learning from the responses, too!

That said, T.Lex brings up something I've noted with many people I've evaluated (each person gets individually evaluated before I begin their training session/s). MOST people, even those quite experienced, simply do not have their gun in hand early enough in the OODA loop. For example, in another thread on INGO, someone posted a 'martial arts FAST' training video where an attacker (or multiple) charged toward them. In that specific clip, every one of those student / defenders 'failed' in having their gun in hand early enough in the scenario, at least from the manner I instruct.

As rhino aptly noted, round chambered or not, one-handed drills are an essential part of training. The possibility of needing that skill set is as high (higher?) than an individual needing to engage their EDC in the first place.

And this applies to revolvers as well as auto-pistols. Whatever one carries, knowing how to engage, load, empty, and reload with one hand (strong AND weak) is absolutely essential.

My apologies to Expatriated for the thread-jack(s).