Zionsville Attempting to Restrict Rural Shooting

[j706]

Does anyone happen to know when any of these elected officials are up for re election? I am all for sending anyone that runs against them some funds

 

[galval]

A message on the current situation of the ordinance was forwarded to me by someone who attended this morning's Town Council agenda planning meeting. See below.

Apparently, not all councilors were present (Hopper missing) and a two were 15 minutes late (Schuler and Suarez) so the discussion on the topic may have been truncated.

For those of you emailing the councilors, can you tell us their replies?
----------------------------
Here is the message forwarded to me about the status:


This morning at the Town Council agenda meeting, the Council decided that further discussion about this gun discharge in the rural area of Zionsville issue would happen at the Zionsville Safety Board level. It was discussed that there should be a special meeting and that they would announce that date and time for that meeting to discuss this issue after today's (Monday July29th) Safety Board meeting.


There may be some minimal discussion about this at the TC meeting on Aug 5th, but I believe that they have formally removed it from the August 5th TC agenda and no decision would be made except that the ordinance currently on the table should be discussed and vetted by the safety board before it would go to the full council for discussion at a later date.


They are hoping to make sure this announced publicly so that people can make their voices heard at the Safety Board meeting TBD and not at the TC meeting. The Councilors on the Safety Board are Steve Mundy (chair), Jeff Papa, and Susana Suarez. They will be able to furnish you with additional details after today's meeting.

 

[galval]

Does anyone happen to know when any of these elected officials are up for re election? I am all for sending anyone that runs against them some funds​

2015 is the short answer.

The long answer is...The Town Council does not have staggered terms, and they are all up for reelection at the same time. This entire crew was elected in 2011, and are all up for reelection in 2015. There are 7 members, 2 at large and 5 from districts.

Anyone wanting to run won't file until January or February of 2015. Hopefully this will wake people up and get people interested in running.

 

[j706]

2015 is the short answer.

The long answer is...The Town Council does not have staggered terms, and they are all up for reelection at the same time. This entire crew was elected in 2011, and are all up for reelection in 2015. There are 7 members, 2 at large and 5 from districts.

Anyone wanting to run won't file until January or February of 2015. Hopefully this will wake people up and get people interested in running.

Well I guess that makes it even easier then. Matter of fact just the idea that any of them even entertained this bill is grounds for supporting anyone that runs against them IMO.

I do not care much for folks coming into a new area and attempting to impose their will and beliefs on others. This is what sounds like is going on in Zionsville. Zionsville has always been a safe place to live. It is now a safe place to live. No one is really concerned with or worried about stray rounds as it is not a problem. Shooting guns is not something some of the minority like, they want it ended and all others be damned.

 

[DennisTheMenace]

Schuler and Suarez were only about five minutes late and were fully involved in the discussion that followed. As I mentioned the three councilors that are on the safety board are Suarez, Papa, and Mundy. I cannot get a read on either Papa or Mundy but Suarez is definitely for this ordinance. The Safety Board has no power to enact ordinances, only to give recommendations to the full Council. If they decide that some sort of ordinance is warranted it still has to go before the Town Council in a public meeting. At either a regular first Monday of the month meeting at 7pm, or a special meeting could be called but I seriously doubt they would do that.

 

[GuyRelford]

I received a similar response from Jeff Papa, president of the Town Council. His note and my response are below.

I do think that it is still important for those who oppose the proposed ordinance to attend the meeting on August 5. Although no action will be taken by the Town Council on the ordinance on that date, I would hate for the proponents of the ordinance to have a monopoly on any public comments that are made at the meeting - which can be on any topic.

Guy

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Proposed Ordinance
From:
<guy@relfordlaw.com>
Date: Tue, July 30, 2013 10:35 am
To: "jeff
papa" <jeffpapa@yahoo.com>, "Jeff Papa
(JPapa@zionsville-in.gov)"
<JPapa@zionsville-in.gov>, "Ed Mitro"
<emitro@zionsville-in.gov>,
"ehopper@zionsville-in.gov"
<ehopper@zionsville-in.gov>,
"tschuler@zionsville-in.gov"
<tschuler@zionsville-in.gov>, "Steve
Mundy" <smundy@zionsville-in.gov>,
"Susana Duarte de Suarez"
<sukoduarte@gmail.com>, "Tim Haak"
<thaak@zionsville-in.gov>,
"wdelong@zionsville-in.gov"
<wdelong@zionsville-in.gov>,
"kimberly.blanchet@btlaw.com"
<kimberly.blanchet@btlaw.com>
Cc:
"'Candace Ulmer'" <culmer@zionsville-in.gov>, "Ken
Campbell"
<KCampbell@co.boone.in.us>

Jeff - thank you very much for this update. I believe that it is a positive step for the Safety Board to consider this issue, primarily because it has always been my impression that the references to "public health" and "safety" in the proposed ordinance have been used rather disingenuously as a means to regulate what is really a very limited neighbor-relations issue.

Once the Board focuses on safety, I believe that it will become immediately apparent that the proposed ordinance constitutes an unnecessary restriction of the rights of the residents of the Rural Service District while doing absolutely nothing to protect the safety of their neighbors. As a certified firearms instructor, I can tell you that the proposed buffer of 150 yards is arbitrary and meaningless from a firearm safety perspective. Most of the smallest handguns on the market today can pose an immediate hazard to someone well beyond 150 yards away if they are used in an irresponsible way. On the other hand, the most powerful long-range rifles - accurate at distances over one mile - are entirely safe to someone only a few inches away from where they are fired if they are handled responsibly.

What makes the difference? Certainly not distance. Rather, direction of fire, the appropriateness of the target and the existence of an effective backstop will determine whether any particular shooting activity poses a threat to anyone else in the vicinity. Only with the complete absence of a backstop - natural or man-made - does distance determine risk, along with a myriad of other factors. In fact, because direction of fire is paramount in determining safety - as opposed to distance - the proposed ordinance would actually create more risk than it mitigates. Specifically, the ordinance would motivate some residents to shoot from the central interior of their property toward their neighbors' property - in order to achieve the 150-yard distance from the property line - as opposed to firing from the periphery of their property toward the center - which would be much safer for adjoining landowners.

In addition, if the focus of the proposed ordinance is truly on safety, the Safety Board should consider whether it would add anything to existing Indiana law. As I mentioned in an earlier email, the discharge of a firearm in a manner that creates even a risk of bodily injury to another person is immediately prosecutable as Criminal Recklessness with a Deadly Weapon, a Class D felony. Even pointing a loaded firearm at another person is punishable as Pointing a Firearm, another Class D Felony. (Even pointing an unloaded firearm at another person is a crime - Pointing a Firearm, a Class A Misdemeanor.) As a result, if any Zionsville resident fires - or even points - a firearm today so as to endanger another resident, they don't have to worry about a fine from the Town of Zionsville - they have to worry about going to prison. For these reasons, the proposed ordinance is absolutely unnecessary if the goal is really to promote and protect the physical well-being of Zionsville residents.

In summary, I think it should be instructive to the Board that Sheriff Ken Campbell and I - who combined have taught, published and lectured to promote firearm safety for several decades - both oppose this ordinance as unnecessary and unreasonable.

I look forward to attending the Town Council meeting on August 5 and the Safety Board hearing on August 26.

Thank you very much for your continued communication and consideration.

Guy

---------------
The Law Offices of Guy A. Relford
One South Rangeline Road
Suite 110
Carmel, IN 46032
(317) 844-4297
(317) 844-2036 (fax)
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E-mail: guy@relfordlaw.com
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Proposed
Ordinance
From: jeff papa <jeffpapa@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, July 29, 2013 1:41
pm
To: "guy@relfordlaw.com" <guy@relfordlaw.com>, "Jeff Papa
(JPapa@zionsville-in.gov)" <JPapa@zionsville-in.gov>, Ed Mitro
<emitro@zionsville-in.gov>, "ehopper@zionsville-in.gov"
<ehopper@zionsville-in.gov>, "tschuler@zionsville-in.gov"
<tschuler@zionsville-in.gov>, Steve Mundy <smundy@zionsville-in.gov>,
Susana Duarte de Suarez
<sukoduarte@gmail.com>, Tim Haak
<thaak@zionsville-in.gov>, "wdelong@zionsville-in.gov"
<wdelong@zionsville-in.gov>,
"kimberly.blanchet@btlaw.com"
<kimberly.blanchet@btlaw.com>
Cc: 'Candace Ulmer' <culmer@zionsville-in.gov>, Ken Campbell
<KCampbell@co.boone.in.us>, Jeff Papa <jeffpapa@yahoo.com>

Guy and Sheriff Campbell,

I wanted to make sure you have the most recent information on this, including meeting dates - the two versions of a draft ordinance were placed in the council packet as a way to start a conversation about responding to the repeated constituent complaints from several longtime residents of the rural district. As I mentioned before, the council had not had a full discussion on this topic or decided on any particular action, but felt a responsibility to look into the ongoing inquiries and complaints. Our agenda meeting is the venue at which we meet to discuss what should or should not be on
the council agenda for the next meeting. At the agenda meeting this morning, it was decided that the best forum to hear this issue is the Zionsville Safety Board, and that the Safety Board make any recommendations to the full council for addressing the ongoing complaints - the recommendation will depend on what the safety board learns - it does not necessarily have to recommend an
ordinance. I do want to stress that no course of action has been decided on, but we do need to look into the complaints and related facts. As we agreed, both oridnance drafts raised many questions
and would have required many changes if moved forward.

The next meeting of the Safety Board will be on August 26 at 9 a.m. at Zionsville Town Hall, and of course, the public is welcome. We have removed the topic from the agenda for the full council meeting on August 5 so there will not be any action taken or extensive discussion at that meeting, but of course we do have the public speaking request segment of our agenda every action meeting. If the Safety Board makes recommendations, those would then be made to the full council, where further public input would be taken. Thanks
again for your input.

Jeff​

​

 

[Sfrandolph]

WOW...Really ?
Sure wouldn`t want to make it convenient for those of us with Real jobs to be there, now would we ?

Of course. That is how the corrupt politicians get stuff done their way. Eliminate opposition.

 

[DennisTheMenace]

Be fore warned that the Council limits public input to three minutes at the podium. I've seen them let people go over that by a minute or two but anyone wising to speak before the Council should make it brief, clear, and concise.

EDITED TO ADD: Guy, I sure hope to see that response to Jeff Papa in the form of a letter to the editor in the local papers!

 

[galval]

Ditto Dennis the Menace

Be fore warned that the Council limits public input to three minutes at the podium. I've seen them let people go over that by a minute or two but anyone wising to speak before the Council should make it brief, clear, and concise.

EDITED TO ADD: Guy, I sure hope to see that response to Jeff Papa in the form of a letter to the editor in the local papers!

Ditto the letter to the editor in the paper Dennis the Menace.

I wanted to add - if someone desires to speak longer than 3 minutes, they can have someone cede them their time. The council allows this as long as comments are repetitive.

Someone please correct me here, but my understanding is the original complainers who brought this all about talked for over 20 minutes about the 300 S property. I'm not saying this to indicate that people will be allowed to talk ad nauseam on the topic, rather a precedent may have been set.

All of the TC meetings are on audio tape. I was able to find one instance where it was brought to the TC. Sorry, I don't have the time or desire to go through all of them!

Town of Zionsville » 7/2/2012 7:00PM ? Zionsville Town Council Meeting
Go to audio minutes, begin at 1:49:40.

 

[DennisTheMenace]

All of the TC meetings are on audio tape. I was able to find one instance where it was brought to the TC. Sorry, I don't have the time or desire to go through all of them!

Town of Zionsville » 7/2/2012 7:00PM ? Zionsville Town Council Meeting
Go to audio minutes, begin at 1:49:40.

I was on vacation and missed that one. The one I remember was where a resident complained about constant gun fire, including machine guns!! Oh, the horror!! I will make it a job to find that one.

I live close enough to the parcel in question and I have never heard automatic firearms. Semi-auto at a good rate, yeah.......so what? And I have never heard firearms at inappropriate times such as night, or early mornings, even weekends. It sounds as if this person bought property in the rural district and set up a proper range and now someone wants to take away his property rights because the sound of gun fire upsets their sensibilities.

 

[DennisTheMenace]

Found it! The first speaker did not speak directly in the microphone and is pretty much inaudible and starts at 2:04:00. The subsequent speakers spoke into the speakers and they start at 2:11:50....

Town of Zionsville » 4/9/2012 7:00PM ? Zionsville Town Council Meeting

 

[j706]

Sure glad I do not live there.

 

[cbrooke]

I think landowners with ranges on their property should have to get permits and get inspected by the range Marshall. Your right to shoot on your property doesn't trump your neighbors right to not be shot by you.

The issue of safety continues to arise locally as well as nationally. But ironically there have been no instances of injuries or deaths in zionsville as it relates to safe and responsible firearms use. Oddly enough the people complaining that shooting is unsafe take their kids by car to play football. Clearly the act of getting in a car in zionsville has proven far more dangerous if not fatal than gun use. Further nearly half of the kids who play football wind up with injuries at some point. Now I am not saying we should eliminate American pastimes but I find it strange that with everything we do, that is dangerous, we are picking on gun use. The fact is is zionsville gun use has ironically proven to be one of the towns safest recreational activities.

 

[jcwit]

Seems to be the underlying problem is noise. How bout you folks down there take the mufflers off your lawn mowers. At least your liberal neighbors can't complain about tall grass.

 

[cbrooke]

Tell that to those here who believe government regulation is unnecessary until someone gets hurt. Too bad for the first one hurt I guess.

I hate to say this but if we regulated everything that "might" hurt someone we would have to cede every liberty we know of and accept our constraint of all activities.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I hate to say this but if we regulated everything that "might" hurt someone we would have to cede every liberty we know of and accept our constraint of all activities.

You are exactly right and in complete agreement with the person you quoted. You just haven't got to know him well enough to recognize his brand of sarcasm, which most everything he has posted in this thread is dripping in it.

 

[cbrooke]

That's funny. I live near the private range that started this bru ha ha, that is located on 300S I believe, and when I hear gun fire from that direction it makes me feel ....safe

And jealous that I don't have such a set up on my meager two acres.

Dennis, I am the owner in question. Swing by some time and introduce yourself. Cb

 

[hornadylnl]

You are exactly right and in complete agreement with the person you quoted. You just haven't got to know him well enough to recognize his brand of sarcasm, which most everything he has posted in this thread is dripping in it.

Some are sarcasm impaired, others selectively read what I post.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Some are sarcasm impaired, others selectively read what I post.

Absolutely, but we need to cut the new guy some slack!

 

[DennisTheMenace]

Dennis, I am the owner in question. Swing by some time and introduce yourself. Cb

I'll do that, thanks!

We moved here about 25 years ago and at that time the 15 acres surrounding my house was vacant and the property owner gave me permission to use part of the property as an area I could practice with my .22's. Nice hill as a backstop. Since then it's been sold, divided in two, and are now "estate lots". No more .22 practice but I still use my single shot 410 shotgun to dispatch varmints. Now I use the Boone County Conservation Club to practice with my .22, .223, and assorted pistol calibers.

I've witnessed a lot of "house farms" sprouting up in the north suburban area of Indy, and while it's been pretty much been kept at bay in the Zionsville area, as compared to Westfield, Carmel, Fishers, and Noblesville, it's a spreading. Apparently the economy is picking up enough that some new "house farms" will be cropping up directly adjacent to the Cobblestone subdivision area.

I hope to be retired and moved by the time it reaches me