Why haven't you taken a training class?

[dwh79]

Well, see? You want to do it and you're finding a way to make it happen. What I said applies to you!





I have learned quite a few things from you, young man. I anticipate that pattern will not cease any time soon.





Are you a law enforcement professional? If not, why are you fixated on LEOs as the source for training? I ask because it's been present in most if not all of the messages you post here and it makes me curious. For the record, I have no commercial interest in you or your training, so please do not think I have some personal agenda here.

For what it's worth (and this may be an unpopular set of statements), there are quite a few LEOs who are fantastic trainers, but in general this area of study is driven primarily by civilian private citizens, not LEO or military. Much of the body of techniques trickles into the LEO/military world, not from it. There are exceptions, particularly in tactics that are primarily or exclusively the realm of cops and soldiers, but in terms of gun handling, shooting, etc. civilian private citizens are doing the heavy lifting in the research and development department.

i am not LEO. I may not have articulated well enough here I do not think LEO is best training no matter what. I do believe they have more opportunities to have training vetted than most other training programs. I do know that other fields as referenced in hunters teaching tracking etc to the military is valuable but again that is only one component to the overall training platform and I agree that one should look at all levels and see things with an open mind and not get clouded by having to have it all fit into a nice package.

I also know that not everyone is a good teacher and as such it is important to be taught how to teach. You do not have to be the best at what you are teaching as long as you are teaching good fundamentals and you are able to teach as not everyone can.

My point about certification is it lends itself to credibility. The reason I bring up the LEO training so much is that most of their instructors will have been certified someway somehow. I would like to see more opportunities for certification of non LEO trainers as well. An expansion beyond just the NRA certs.

For me a certification is just one component I would look for not the one and only component.

Again in this is all just my opinion and I know that a lot of people think differently.

 

[bwframe]

i am not LEO. I may not have articulated well enough here I do not think LEO is best training no matter what. I do believe they have more opportunities to have training vetted than most other training programs. I do know that other fields as referenced in hunters teaching tracking etc to the military is valuable but again that is only one component to the overall training platform and I agree that one should look at all levels and see things with an open mind and not get clouded by having to have it all fit into a nice package.

I also know that not everyone is a good teacher and as such it is important to be taught how to teach. You do not have to be the best at what you are teaching as long as you are teaching good fundamentals and you are able to teach as not everyone can.

My point about certification is it lends itself to credibility. The reason I bring up the LEO training so much is that most of their instructors will have been certified someway somehow. I would like to see more opportunities for certification of non LEO trainers as well. An expansion beyond just the NRA certs.

For me a certification is just one component I would look for not the one and only component.

Again in this is all just my opinion and I know that a lot of people think differently.

What is your basis for the idea that you might get a bad firearms instructor?
Even if you distrust some fellow INGOers, why would you think that they might mislead you or any other INGOer on their AAR of local trainers they have taken classes from?

 

[dwh79]

What makes you think you will get a good one? Look I am not trying to tell others what to think I have simply tried to explain what I am looking for. I do not want a tacticool trainer. I do not want a trainer who wants to tell me I need to have the gun with the largest capacity. I want a trainer that wants to talk fundamentals and sound tactics. I am sure there are plenty of people out there that can do this and who run this training out of their back yard. All I want to be able to do is evaluate training options and know I am not getting smoke blown up my butt. I do not believe ingo members would purposely mislead me. I do believe that I may disagree with their opinion on what is prudent and what is not or what is valuable and what is not. Also it is not a matter of distrust it is a matter of disagreeing with their opinions.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I started with dirt cheap training like Appleseed, then I figured out which people I met there had training experience and which of that subgroup seemed to have their act together and who's opinions on training I trusted. I asked those people about this class and that class and who they recommend and who they do not. At the end of the day, you have to start somewhere. Where you start is not as important as just starting.

Just find something cheap that you can get to and take it. Get started and go from there.

 

[bwframe]

What makes you think you will get a good one? ...

Quite simply, poor trainers don't last. Pick a trainer that's been in business for a year or more with good class AAR's from students and you cannot go wrong, period.

 

[Kutnupe14]

What makes you think you will get a good one? Look I am not trying to tell others what to think I have simply tried to explain what I am looking for. I do not want a tacticool trainer. I do not want a trainer who wants to tell me I need to have the gun with the largest capacity. I want a trainer that wants to talk fundamentals and sound tactics. I am sure there are plenty of people out there that can do this and who run this training out of their back yard. All I want to be able to do is evaluate training options and know I am not getting smoke blown up my butt. I do not believe ingo members would purposely mislead me. I do believe that I may disagree with their opinion on what is prudent and what is not or what is valuable and what is not. Also it is not a matter of distrust it is a matter of disagreeing with their opinions.

Your priorities are correct. Rhino is correct, in that the training market is driven by civilians. The problem is that many of those civilians aren't cut out to teach the Boy Scouts how to shoot a .22. Sure there are some great civilian shooters that can teach you a LOT about shooting. However, what many of them sorely lack is the experience recognizing potential threats, evading said threat, de-escalation, and a variety of other extremely useful tactics to AVOID using a firearm in the first place. This isn't to say that all cops of military are well versed in this as well. Lord knows there are tons of morons on both sides. But the odds are a former/current mil/LE will be found teaching sound stuff a bit quicker than your civilian trainer.
Just look at all the Captain Calibers we have here. A lot of guys are all gung ho about shooting someone who knocks on their door, is standing in their driveway, follows them down a sidewalk, or is looting a grocery store. It's almost as if theyre looking to shoot someone. No bueno. A good instructor will give you the confidence to know when you're GTG, and justified engaging a legitimate threat.
If you're wanting to learn to shoot well, there are bunch f guys who know "what's up" on both sides. If want to know how to employ those skills correctly, odds are a guy from LE/Mil is better suited to address that need.

 

[Coach]

If want to know how to employ those skills correctly, odds are a guy from LE/Mil is better suited to address that need.

The situation that a civilian finds himself in and the legal authority that a civilian has are completely different from LE/Mil. In both of those cases they have the obligation to serve/protect and defend others, have friends with radios and guns that are going to come to their aid, they will have rifles and shotguns when they get there. John Q Public is in a different circumstance. Police and military training are not a direct translation to what the average Joe will face.

 

[obijohn]

Coach makes a good point. One of the hardest adjustments for me (a few decades ago) was losing my military mindset. I was trained by soldiers to teach soldiers. Really bad idea to teach civilians that have no need for that type of information. Perhaps as an intellectual exercise but not as a basis for civilian training.

Guess who the soldiers go to for training? Civilians. Some have military or LEO experience but most do not.

dwh79, how do you choose a plumber or a restaurant? If 10, 20 or 100 people all say essentially the same thing, unsolicited, might there be some truth, some useful information? I well and truly wish you luck in finding suitable training.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What makes you think you will get a good one? Look I am not trying to tell others what to think I have simply tried to explain what I am looking for. I do not want a tacticool trainer. I do not want a trainer who wants to tell me I need to have the gun with the largest capacity. I want a trainer that wants to talk fundamentals and sound tactics. I am sure there are plenty of people out there that can do this and who run this training out of their back yard. All I want to be able to do is evaluate training options and know I am not getting smoke blown up my butt. I do not believe ingo members would purposely mislead me. I do believe that I may disagree with their opinion on what is prudent and what is not or what is valuable and what is not. Also it is not a matter of distrust it is a matter of disagreeing with their opinions.

Let me ask you this. I've been here for years. Go look at my posts. Look up my guide for selecting a carry gun. Look at the advise I've given in questions on self defense. Then look at my resume related to the defensive pistol concepts class I'm offering with Coach.

Based on what you can determine in my years of history here and my background and experience, do you believe I am tacticool high capacity out of touch hoorah? Given the feedback and history of others here saying there shooting was improved by a feedback session with Coach, do you doubt he has a grasp on teaching fundamentals?

 

[rhino]

What makes you think you will get a good one? Look I am not trying to tell others what to think I have simply tried to explain what I am looking for. I do not want a tacticool trainer. I do not want a trainer who wants to tell me I need to have the gun with the largest capacity. I want a trainer that wants to talk fundamentals and sound tactics. I am sure there are plenty of people out there that can do this and who run this training out of their back yard. All I want to be able to do is evaluate training options and know I am not getting smoke blown up my butt. I do not believe ingo members would purposely mislead me. I do believe that I may disagree with their opinion on what is prudent and what is not or what is valuable and what is not. Also it is not a matter of distrust it is a matter of disagreeing with their opinions.

How can you possibly know whether or not you agree or disagree with any of the trainers if you have never participated in any of their classes?

If you have not yet developed a body of knowledge and skills, how can you know whether or not your disagreement is valid? Upon what do you base your opinions? Can you opinions withstand challenge by testing them?

Are you interested in training that only provides self-affirmation, or training that challenges you and helps you improve?

How do you know what you don't know?

These questions apply to everyone, not just you.

 

[rhino]

Based on what you can determine in my years of history here and my background and experience, do you believe I am tacticool high capacity out of touch hoorah? Given the feedback and history of others here saying there shooting was improved by a feedback session with Coach, do you doubt he has a grasp on teaching fundamentals?

Yes, yes I do.

Heh.

DISCLAIMER: rhino could not resist. <--- fine print

 

[BehindBlueI's]

For what it's worth, I am in training right now. On break at the moment. I don't agree with 100% of what I've heard but I've certainly gotten plenty out of it.

 

[VERT]

As always Jackson's threads deliver.

Go easy guys. I think there is some legitamate concern about picking an instructor. There are plenty of good and bad instructors out there. I have recieved instruction from people who I thought did an excellent job and some who were not as good. LEO or non-LEO didn't seem to make a difference.

 

[dwh79]

I am sorry this turned into a big ordeal about what I look for . I also know I don't know what I don't know. Yes a large chunk of positive feedback is a good indicator and one component to look at. Yes behind blue i's I feel your history and post I have seen are very valid and I agree with a lot of what you have said. However are you not also an officer and had more training than a lot of people on here? Don't you in turn meet part of my criteria of learning from those whom I know have been through good training. Also I do not want military based training as no that does not seem relevant. I also do not believe all LE training is relevant but I at least have a better understanding of what it is about. I actually signed up for my first official training class and I am looking forward to it. I am unsure if it will be good or not. It is at a local to me range and the price was fair.

i agree with a lot of what everyone has been telling me and I was not trying to be difficult I just believe what I believe. I also am not looking for someone to tell me I am right at a training. I will take it with a very open mind. Just like I have at Appleseed shoots which I feel have provided me with very good training on proper rifle shooting techniques.

i am sorry if I offended anyone by the tacticool comments I just see this not only on INGO but in society and magazines as a whole and I think people take it to far.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I am sorry this turned into a big ordeal about what I look for . I also know I don't know what I don't know. Yes a large chunk of positive feedback is a good indicator and one component to look at. Yes behind blue i's I feel your history and post I have seen are very valid and I agree with a lot of what you have said. However are you not also an officer and had more training than a lot of people on here? Don't you in turn meet part of my criteria of learning from those whom I know have been through good training. Also I do not want military based training as no that does not seem relevant. I also do not believe all LE training is relevant but I at least have a better understanding of what it is about. I actually signed up for my first official training class and I am looking forward to it. I am unsure if it will be good or not. It is at a local to me range and the price was fair.

i agree with a lot of what everyone has been telling me and I was not trying to be difficult I just believe what I believe. I also am not looking for someone to tell me I am right at a training. I will take it with a very open mind. Just like I have at Appleseed shoots which I feel have provided me with very good training on proper rifle shooting techniques.

i am sorry if I offended anyone by the tacticool comments I just see this not only on INGO but in society and magazines as a whole and I think people take it to far.

Sorry if you felt like you were being dogpiled. Training evangelists are as bad as any other type. Once you engage us, we tend to get pushy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I am sorry this turned into a big ordeal about what I look for . I also know I don't know what I don't know. Yes a large chunk of positive feedback is a good indicator and one component to look at. Yes behind blue i's I feel your history and post I have seen are very valid and I agree with a lot of what you have said. However are you not also an officer and had more training than a lot of people on here? Don't you in turn meet part of my criteria of learning from those whom I know have been through good training. Also I do not want military based training as no that does not seem relevant. I also do not believe all LE training is relevant but I at least have a better understanding of what it is about. I actually signed up for my first official training class and I am looking forward to it. I am unsure if it will be good or not. It is at a local to me range and the price was fair.

i agree with a lot of what everyone has been telling me and I was not trying to be difficult I just believe what I believe. I also am not looking for someone to tell me I am right at a training. I will take it with a very open mind. Just like I have at Appleseed shoots which I feel have provided me with very good training on proper rifle shooting techniques.

i am sorry if I offended anyone by the tacticool comments I just see this not only on INGO but in society and magazines as a whole and I think people take it to far.

I want to be sure we're on the same page. I'm not discounting anything you said. I agree in many ways. I am certainly not offended. I was just using the class I put together and partnered with Coach to present as an example because we both have lengthy histories here. I didn't join this place 3 years ago and offer what I've offered, said what I've said, etc. to puff a training class. If I had, I would have been nicer to people. I never intended to do training at all. I am doing this because I'm tired of seeing the good guys lose, and the percentages of wins to losses for the good guys isn't what I think they can be. I'm drifting off topic, but my point is you can easily evaluate me and Coach here to see if we'd meet your criteria and what you want out of a class and make a decision on if we're worth a $75 gamble and your time. If you have any questions on what we'll cover, etc, feel free to PM me.

 

[cedartop]

Sorry if you felt like you were being dogpiled. Training evangelists are as bad as any other type. Once you engage us, we tend to get pushy.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Jackson]

I don't want to be pushy. My primary goal here is to find out why people who carry aren't getting professional training and, for those who want it, identify the barriers. Maybe in the process we can pull some of them down and connect those people to training that fits their needs and desires.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I don't want to be pushy. My primary goal here is to find out why people who carry aren't getting professional training and, for those who want it, identify the barriers. Maybe in the process we can pull some of them down and connect those people to training that fits their needs and desires.

I know you do not want to be pushy. I don't want to be pushy either, but sometimes I am, especially about advocating training. I have actually chatted up total strangers in restaurants advocating training. I'm as bad as any other person who really wants to help.

 

[dwh79]

Oh I understand I did not really feel dog piled on. I appreciate everyone's feedback and info as well. Thank you and yes I will continue to try and learn more. Also I will say that I do respect everyone that has posted here and I am sure you guys offer good programs and I will look into your offerings. Thanks again.